VAMs - so what?!

[Prethen]

I don't mean the thread name to be as provocative or mean-sounding as it may sound, but I did want to catch some attention and get some answers on this thread. [Please don't PM me if you think the thread name sounds mean....you know who you are! :-)]

 

First off, I own the VAM book. I've done a bit of VAM'ing of collections I've bought. I've found mostly very minor VAM's, maybe a couple of Top 100. Next, I understand that Morgan dollars are a very popular collected series. After all the extra hours of searching, I never made a extra cent for my efforts of finding all those minor VAM's. As of now, if I get a batch of Morgans, I only look for the most "obvious" of die characteristics and then worry about assigning a VAM number to them (to make an extra buck or two, of course, but this has yet to occur for me).

 

So, the question is, why did this whole VAM designation and fervor catch on for Morgans and not so for other series? I can tell ya there are a ton of 3CN varieties, but not a whole lot of people go quoting the Gifford book noting the die combination when displaying these coins. Okay, I'll give ya a point on the fact that 3CN is about the least liked series. It just happens to be one I know a bit about.

 

It seems that collectors go nuts over various VAMs which in reality are very, very minor die characteristics. I guess I don't understand the attraction. On the same point, I don't understand the attracting for looking for a microscopic spike on the make of a Minnesota state quarter either.

 

Okay...flame away!

 

 

 

[dooly]

Hi

 

I think it boils down to "Big silver coin syndrome" BSCS

 

Just like everyone likes big eyed animals but stamp on insects

 

Like yourself i like an underrated field (shield nickles) which have much better DDo etc but groups like NGC still do not recognize things like missing leaf varieties but will note Lesser Vam's

 

you are right whats it all about

[MikeInFL]

"So, the question is, why did this whole VAM designation and fervor catch on for Morgans and not so for other series?"

 

Ever heard of large cents? Rumor has it they have been collected by die and die state since before the first Morgan dollar came off the presses....Mike

[physics-fan3.14]

Many of the early coins are collected by die variety (and die state for some, as Mike points out) Ever hear of Overton, Bolender, and the like? I would argue that the CBH is just as popular to collect by die variety as the Morgan is, if not more so.

[cmerlo1-migration]

I enjoy cherrypicking VAMs, and have done well with many of the ones I've sold. I like the fact that there are so many, and the fact that until recently, there were few people looking for them. Even as a VAM discoverer (1923 VAM-1BC), I sometimes scratch my head at what gets designated VAM status, but at the same time appreciate such a thorough attribution of varieties. I do agree that there are VAM varieties, that if they were on a different type of coin, would be considered worthless or detrimental to a coin's value (like die breaks or clashes). I concur that the 'Big Silver Coin Syndrome' is a factor in their popularity, combined with the ease of acquiring mint state examples of a lot of the vareties. I also agree with the other posts- one can look at any of the coin series from the late 18th-early 19th century and, IMHO, find varieties more spectacular than any VAM. Even later series, like shield nickels, have spectacular varieties. Why do I like VAMs? I like finding varieties, and there are so many things to look for, I can usually find something, which is fun.

[BillJones]

The early coins are more popular among collectors because the dies were hand made, and the differences are much easier to spot and remember. The later coins were made from standarized dies, and the differences are mostly minor stuff that require a 10X to find.

 

I remember that I once owned an 1872 Two Cent piece choice Mint State years ago. There had just been a new book on Two Cent piece die varieties released, and the author had only found three varieties for the 1872 issue. The book did not have any plates, and there were only word descriptions. I spent over half an hour before I finally found the marker for the variety. It was very, very tiny thing in the motto that was almost impossible to see. It did not amount to anything. Needless to say I did not become a Two Cent piece die variety collector!

 

The Morgan dollars are a bit easier attribute than other coins of their era for many reasons. A few of them are (1) the VAM book is really first rate with wonderful pictures (2) the coins had huge mintages (3) the large diameter of the coins required a lot of pressure to strike them AND factors (2) and (3) translated to the use of a large number of dies that sometimes had some really obvious defects.

 

Nickel Three cent pieces chewed up a lot of dies too because the nickel is hard to strike and knocks the devil out of dies. For those reasons many dies were used relative to the mintages. Still a lot of people don't get turned on by the Nickel Three cent piece. And since people are not that taken with collecting by date, it follows that the die varieties are not very popular either.

[Prethen]

I didn't mean to slight the Large Cent or Overton (CBH) collectors. Actually, I didn't even think of those series when I wrote the above post. Yes, the Overton varieties do seem to get a lot of attention. VAMs garner just a bit more though.

[MikeInFL]

I would suggest, completely unscientifically, that serious large cent colletors and bust half collectors (both are almost by definition variety collectors) both outnumber those who are seriously interested in VAM collecting. Be careful in confusing internet jitter with number of collectors...Mike

[Prethen]

Mike, I guess it's just that "jitter" that I'm noticing and interested in. Why so much friggin' "jitter" over what mostly amounts to microscopic die flaws?

[jackson64]

i like the CBH collecting as well...I know it sounds geeky, but sometimes I'll just go on ebay and peruse through dates that have an R5 or 6 . With my Overton in front of me I check to see if any unattributed die rarities are there for the cherrypicking---it's a fun and educational way to enjoy the hobby and kill an hour or two...and who knows, I might get lucky someday..!!!

[Just Bob]

Noun 1. jitter - small rapid variations in a waveform resulting from fluctuations in the voltage supply or mechanical vibrations or other sources

2. jitter - a small irregular movement

 

 

[MikeInFL]

Mike, I guess it's just that "jitter" that I'm noticing and interested in. Why so much friggin' "jitter" over what mostly amounts to microscopic die flaws?

 

I suspect because the coins are readily available and cherrypicked. Also, it appeals to the prospector in all of us. Finally, information and fellow collectors are available at your fingertips with the Internet and forums like this.

 

Myself, I flirted with collecting 21-D VAMs, more than anything, because of the availability of online literature and the few posters who seem to be very interested in it ATS, and very willing to share their knowedge. After a month or two, I became disinterested in it and moved on.

 

But that's just me, and YMMV. If VAMs float your boat, I say more power to you!!!..Mike

 

p.s. I apologize for introducing signal terminology (i.e. "jitter") into a coin forum, and I can neither confirm or deny that any member of this forum (e.g. Jackson) resembles that comment.

[jackson64]

..too funny..are you suggesting that I'm a spaz?...

[rrantique]

Noun 1. jitter - small rapid variations in a waveform resulting from fluctuations in the voltage supply or mechanical vibrations or other sources

2. jitter - a small irregular movement

 

 

Example "Die jitter".

[cpm9ball]

First of all, I don't understand why a coin struck with a rusty, pitted die should be considered a Top 100 variety among VAM's.

 

However, I think one of the reasons for the popularity of VAM's is because there are 3,000+ varieties that can be found in MS condition without having to pay an arm and a leg for them. How many everyday collectors like myself and others here would be collecting them if they started at $1,000 or more?

 

Chris

[Tradedollarnut]

Basically, ya gotta do *something* to try and make Morgans rare.

[cpm9ball]

Basically, ya gotta do *something* to try and make Morgans rare.

 

Short of melting 90% of them, what do you suggest? Putting chopmarks on them?

 

Chris

[Conder101]

The key reason it caught on is simple. The Morgans are a very popular series and readily available. Look at the other series that have die variety references. The ones where the varieties are most "important" or actively pursued are those where the coin series itself is also widely collected by the non-variety collector. (One exception to this is the colonials where if you collect a series you almost always collect by variety and there are very few general collectors of the series.)

 

Large cents are widely collected by date, and varieties are important and talked about, Bust halves are popular and Overtons are important. But bust quarters and early dollars are not widely collected except as type coins, and you don't hear a whole lot about Browning or Bolander numbers even though the series are well documented.

 

If say 1% of the people who collect a series are into the varieties for that series you get maybe ten people who will talk about three cent or shield nickel varieties, but how many people collect Morgan dollars? And when 1% of that number start talking about VAMs, it makes a lot of noise. A LOT more than on the less popular series and they get drowned out.

[hoard]

My guess is it sort of like the Bust collectors. They collect die varieties. I am not into the variety thing but many are, and make that their collecting interest. I just sent in some Morgans for grading and got one back that is Top50 Vam 3 but I have yet to look it up to see what it is because I have little interest. To me it is probably just another die break that can be seen on any number a coin.

[MAULEMALL]

Basically, ya gotta do *something* to try and make Morgans rare.

 

Short of melting 90% of them, what do you suggest? Putting chopmarks on them?

 

Chris

You tell him

[MTHead-migration]

Sing with your best Edwin Starr (or Jackie Chan) voice!

 

VAMS, huh, yeah

What is it good for

Absolutely nothing

Uh-huh

VAMS, huh, yeah

What is it good for

Absolutely nothing

Say it again, y'all

 

VAMS, huh, good God

What is it good for

Absolutely nothing

Listen to me

 

Ohhh, VAMS, I despise

Because it means destruction

Of innocent lives

 

 

[MAULEMALL]

With Morgans you go to 2 very wide extreams... If you look at the 78's you see a raw and even somewhat rough beauty of a coin.. With some seriousely cool VAMs

 

But when you get to the 21's you get( what I consider) a bland lifeless shell of the original. with pretty blah VAMs.

 

I have thought about collecting 78 Morgans just because the look of them is original and somewhat raw.

 

[MBA101]

Basically, ya gotta do *something* to try and make Morgans rare.

 

Wait a second! Is that commercial lying when it says all Morgans have been melted and there are only 4177 survivors in Brilliant Uncirculated to Fine condition and these survivors are now being made available to the publik for only 19.95 each with a strict limit of 5 per customer and if you don't act now you will have regrets later?

[okbustchaser]

I would suggest, completely unscientifically, that serious large cent colletors and bust half collectors (both are almost by definition variety collectors) both outnumber those who are seriously interested in VAM collecting. Be careful in confusing internet jitter with number of collectors...Mike

 

Mike, I'm not sure I would go that far simply because of the huge number of people who for some weird reason collect Morgans. (Sure can't have to do with looks since Morgans are the ugliest coins ever minted by the US.) I will say, however, that the percentage of either large cent or bust half collectors by variety as compared to non-variety collectors is much larger than VAM to general Morgan collectors.

[cpm9ball]

Sure can't have to do with looks since Morgans are the ugliest coins ever minted by the US.

 

It sure beats that undernourished chicken on the reverse of early bust coinage.

 

Chris

[MAULEMALL]

Mike, I'm not sure I would go that far simply because of the huge number of people who for some weird reason collect Morgans. (Sure can't have to do with looks since Morgans are the ugliest coins ever minted by the US.)

All this statement shows is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[MAULEMALL]

Sure can't have to do with looks since Morgans are the ugliest coins ever minted by the US.

 

It sure beats that undernourished chicken on the reverse of early bust coinage.

 

Chris

You have to speak slower...he's a bust chaser..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[okbustchaser]

That's all right. I am also a bust catcher.

[MAULEMALL]

That's all right. I am also a bust catcher.

[Dcoin]

Maybe VAMing appeals to the nature of certain people?

 

Detail oriented, studiers, technical minded.