How stable is the color on Battlecreek Morgan Dollars?

[IGWT]

There's an interesting thread across the street in which some posters explain their perception that the color on their BC Morgans has changed over time. I know that some folks here don't like cross-forum posting; but, I have a feeling that members here (who are prohibited from posting ATS) might be able to add something to the discussion. Link .

 

How stable is the color on the Battlecreek coins? Has anyone noticed changes in the color (say, either a fading or deepening of the color) on Battlecreek pieces. If so, are you surprised, and what might account for it?

[jgrinz]

It was my thinking that they were AT and sides with that group.

Maybe it looks like they are - I hear they are turning DARK

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

There's an interesting thread across the street in which some posters explain their perception that the color on their BC Morgans has changed over time. I know that some folks here don't like cross-forum posting; but, I have a feeling that members here (who are prohibited from posting ATS) might be able to add something to the discussion. Link .

 

How stable is the color on the Battlecreek coins? Has anyone noticed changes in the color (say, either a fading or deepening of the color) on Battlecreek pieces. If so, are you surprised, and what might account for it?

The color will be as stable (or unstable) as that of other bag-toned Morgan Dollars. Factors such as heat, humidity and human beings' imperfect recollections of the coins' appearances can affect how stable they are and/or look.

[relicsncoins]

Maybe they will all turn black, and then the one and only rainbow toner I own will jump up in value.

 

JJ

[Tradedollarnut]

There's an interesting thread across the street in which some posters explain their perception that the color on their BC Morgans has changed over time. I know that some folks here don't like cross-forum posting; but, I have a feeling that members here (who are prohibited from posting ATS) might be able to add something to the discussion. Link .

 

How stable is the color on the Battlecreek coins? Has anyone noticed changes in the color (say, either a fading or deepening of the color) on Battlecreek pieces. If so, are you surprised, and what might account for it?

The color will be as stable (or unstable) as that of other bag-toned Morgan Dollars. Factors such as heat, humidity and human beings' imperfect recollections of the coins' appearances can affect how stable they are and/or look.

 

Aren't you presuming facts not in evidence, counselor?

[gmarguli]

There's an interesting thread across the street in which some posters explain their perception that the color on their BC Morgans has changed over time. I know that some folks here don't like cross-forum posting; but, I have a feeling that members here (who are prohibited from posting ATS) might be able to add something to the discussion. Link .

 

How stable is the color on the Battlecreek coins? Has anyone noticed changes in the color (say, either a fading or deepening of the color) on Battlecreek pieces. If so, are you surprised, and what might account for it?

The color will be as stable (or unstable) as that of other bag-toned Morgan Dollars. Factors such as heat, humidity and human beings' imperfect recollections of the coins' appearances can affect how stable they are and/or look.

 

Aren't you presuming facts not in evidence, counselor?

 

Objection overruled. Mr. Feld, please continue to be a doe-eyed optimist.

[DirtyGoldMan]

There's an interesting thread across the street in which some posters explain their perception that the color on their BC Morgans has changed over time. I know that some folks here don't like cross-forum posting; but, I have a feeling that members here (who are prohibited from posting ATS) might be able to add something to the discussion. Link .

 

How stable is the color on the Battlecreek coins? Has anyone noticed changes in the color (say, either a fading or deepening of the color) on Battlecreek pieces. If so, are you surprised, and what might account for it?

The color will be as stable (or unstable) as that of other bag-toned Morgan Dollars. Factors such as heat, humidity and human beings' imperfect recollections of the coins' appearances can affect how stable they are and/or look.

 

Well, good sir, how stable/unstable are bag-toned Morgans, in general?

[IGWT]

Objection overruled. Mr. Feld, please continue to be a doe-eyed optimist.

 

Perhaps you should play the role of the prosecutor instead of the judge? Why do you think that Mark is being a doe-eyed optimist for believing that the Battlecreek coins are legitimate bag toners?

[gmarguli]

Objection overruled. Mr. Feld, please continue to be a doe-eyed optimist.

 

Perhaps you should play the role of the prosecutor instead of the judge? Why do you think that Mark is being a doe-eyed optimist for believing that the Battlecreek coins are legitimate bag toners?

 

I plead the 5th.

[IGWT]

Objection overruled. Mr. Feld, please continue to be a doe-eyed optimist.

 

Perhaps you should play the role of the prosecutor instead of the judge? Why do you think that Mark is being a doe-eyed optimist for believing that the Battlecreek coins are legitimate bag toners?

 

I plead the 5th.

 

I grant you immunity, so you can't plead the 5th. Seriously, what is it about the coins that makes them suspect in your (undoelike) eyes?

[gmarguli]

Objection overruled. Mr. Feld, please continue to be a doe-eyed optimist.

 

Perhaps you should play the role of the prosecutor instead of the judge? Why do you think that Mark is being a doe-eyed optimist for believing that the Battlecreek coins are legitimate bag toners?

 

I plead the 5th.

 

I grant you immunity, so you can't plead the 5th. Seriously, what is it about the coins that makes them suspect in your (undoelike) eyes?

 

Not to be too evasive, but basically what I've been told by people who have been reliable and accurate in the past with "non-public" information as well as what I have observed in the marketplace which corroborates what I have been told.

[michael]

oh my

 

my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my

[just-john]

I was a doe-eyed optimist but evasive till I drank a 5th ending up in a bag and though it's non public information I was observed changing colors.But they went away so I have been told

[Tradedollarnut]

Not to be too evasive, but basically what I've been told by people who have been reliable and accurate in the past with "non-public" information as well as what I have observed in the marketplace which corroborates what I have been told.

 

Whether or not that is too evasive would depend upon what the definition of 'is' is.

 

[Conder101]

One thing that no one has mentioned yet is that toning is a function the interaction of the light and the thickness of the oxide/sulfide layer on the coin. The thickness of the layers determines what colors you see, and the intensity and color spectrum of the light source determine the intensity of the colors. If you see the coin under a different light source it is possible for a vividly toned coin to appear duller. Even if you use the same light, over time as the light is used and ages its color spectrum can shift.

 

I like the mention of taking pictures each year under the same conditions to determine if there have been any changes. I would think that you would find it to be harder than you might imagine to have the exact same conditions for each years photography unless you took the picture and then did not move the camera of any of the lights during the intervening year. You change the angle of the camera or the position or angle of any of the lights and it will have an effect on the resulting photo. You also have to shoot in a dark room as well so that the only light comes from those used for the picture. No ambient light, because you could not guarantee that the future pictures would have the exact same ambient light levels and colors.

[Frank Provasek]

Taking anything out of a stable environment can cause changes.

[Frank Provasek]

I think we have seen so many images in catalogs and on the web which have the color intensifed that when we look at the real thing we are disapponted. Sort of like the airbushed and photoshopped women in magazines

[kryptonitecomics]

My opinion is these coins are NT....I stand by that and I don't personally believe that these coins will see any significant darkening in the coming years/decades. If I had the money I would gladly pick up a few specimens since I had to sell all of mine off

[IGWT]

Not to be too evasive, but basically what I've been told by people who have been reliable and accurate in the past with "non-public" information as well as what I have observed in the marketplace which corroborates what I have been told.

 

I can understand not sharing information that was given in confidence. But can't you explain "what [you] have observed in the marketplace" without breaching that confidence?

[MarkFeld]

Not to be too evasive, but basically what I've been told by people who have been reliable and accurate in the past with "non-public" information as well as what I have observed in the marketplace which corroborates what I have been told.

 

I can understand not sharing information that was given in confidence. But can't you explain "what [you] have observed in the marketplace" without breaching that confidence?

I doubt that Greg has "observed" anything. As opposed to my being a "doe-eyed optimist", he is a "closed-eyed pessimist".

[gmarguli]

Not to be too evasive, but basically what I've been told by people who have been reliable and accurate in the past with "non-public" information as well as what I have observed in the marketplace which corroborates what I have been told.

 

I can understand not sharing information that was given in confidence. But can't you explain "what [you] have observed in the marketplace" without breaching that confidence?

 

Certain active dealers in these coins who abruptly stopped dealing in them right around the time certain info was available. I was also told flat out by one particular dealer why he stopped dealing in them.

 

Still, the coins may be 100% NT and the info floated incorrect. Every buyer needs to make up their own mind as to whether the coins are acceptable for themselves. If they are pretty, then NT or AT does not matter, IMHO.

[IGWT]

Not to be too evasive, but basically what I've been told by people who have been reliable and accurate in the past with "non-public" information as well as what I have observed in the marketplace which corroborates what I have been told.

 

I can understand not sharing information that was given in confidence. But can't you explain "what [you] have observed in the marketplace" without breaching that confidence?

 

Certain active dealers in these coins who abruptly stopped dealing in them right around the time certain info was available. I was also told flat out by one particular dealer why he stopped dealing in them.

 

Still, the coins may be 100% NT and the info floated incorrect. Every buyer needs to make up their own mind as to whether the coins are acceptable for themselves. If they are pretty, then NT or AT does not matter, IMHO.

 

Sunnywood and Mike DeFalco say you're all wet.

 

Sunnywood writes:

 

The deal was handled by Superior on behalf of the owner, a dealer who wished to remain anonymous. I have already speculated above as to the reasons why that might be the case. There are many instances in which sellers try to retain anonymity, for variety of reasons. Superior handled the marketing and conducted the auctions, but it was the owner who submitted them to NGC. It was the owner's idea to creat a collection name to cover the subset of coins that had color.

 

One of the controversies was the award of the NGC star to all of those coins. It certainly appeared as though NGC had cut a deal to hand out the star in return for getting the group. I was later told by NGC that it was the other way around - any coins that did not get the star were excluded from the group that were given the name "Battle Creek Collection." The owner, through NGC and Superior as agent, decided to market only the coins with color that got a star as "Battle Creek" coins. So that appeared to resolve any questions about NGC's award of the "star" designation.

 

Here's a link to more info on the story behind the Battle Creek coins:

 

Link to newmismatist's "The Real Battle Creek Story" thread on TCCS Boards.

 

P.S. According to this story, they were sealed Federal Reserve Bank bags from the 1920's, not U.S. Mint bags, a slight distinction. newmismatist speculates that this explains the small number of 1904-O dollars in the deal. My info was that there was one bag of 1904-O, but newmismatist had it right from the owner.

 

Mike DeFalco writes:

 

I know who opened the bags and I know who submitted them to NGC for grading. If this individual wishes to relinquish his (or her) anonymity he (or she) will do so. If not I respect this individuals right to remain anonymous and so should you. The bags were original and the toning is original. In other words this is the real deal. Anyone who is genuinely knowledgeable in regard to bag toned Morgan dollars wouldn't need to know the provenance to determine the originality of the coins.

 

[gmarguli]

Sunnywood and Mike DeFalco say you're all wet.

 

Well, that settles it. They're NT.

 

I have no financial interest in them, nor have I sold any to my clients, so it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Let's call them 100% NT. I'm OK with that. Same for Peacock Ikes. Same for Appalachian Jeffersons. Same for Blue Indians. Same for lots of other hoards. Color is color and all color is NT in some respects.

 

I've said it over and over again, coin collectors love a good story more than a good coin.

[gmarguli]

I just read one of Sunnywood's posts ATS. I've got a new icon for him to use:

 

[WinstonWare]

Mine still looks the same. I haven't noticed any changes

[kryptonitecomics]

Sunnywood and Mike DeFalco say you're all wet.

 

Well, that settles it. They're NT.

 

I have no financial interest in them, nor have I sold any to my clients, so it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Let's call them 100% NT. I'm OK with that. Same for Peacock Ikes. Same for Appalachian Jeffersons. Same for Blue Indians. Same for lots of other hoards. Color is color and all color is NT in some respects.

 

I've said it over and over again, coin collectors love a good story more than a good coin.

 

I'd like to add to that statement.......coin collectors like to make up good stories for good coins.....

[michael]

Re: How stable is the color on Battlecreek Morgan Dollars?

 

 

highly controversal :devil:and a pass for me

[DirtyGoldMan]

Re: How stable is the color on Battlecreek Morgan Dollars?

 

 

highly controversal :devil:and a pass for me

 

Whether or not the color is stable is not really controversial. It is either changing among the coins you have observed or it is not (or you have not been watching, which is okay, too).

 

However, the origin and story behind these coins appears to be controversial.

 

Nonetheless, unless you want to rile up some folks, the "pass" is probably the easiest and smartest approach.

[Sunnywood]

Interesting how rumor and innuendo intrigue people more than facts. For starters, let's address the OP's question. I know quite a few collectors who own highly colorful Battle Creek Morgan dollars, as well as a handful of dealers who have handled many of them. This list includes several highly respected dealers with 30+ years' experience in the specific area of toned Morgans, as well as several collectors, including myself, who are also specialists in this area. My own collection comprises over 200 toned Morgans, representing a complete set of over 100 distinct issues including several basic varieties.

 

Of all the dealers and collectors referred to above, not one has observed any changes in the color or appearance of the coins. Not one has noticed any fading, darkening or instability in the toning. My own Battle Creek Morgans are as vibrant and colorful as the day I first saw them in auction lot viewing.

 

I believe that the coins came out of nine original, sealed Federal Reserve Bank bags from the 1920's. That is the story offered by the owner, who submitted them to NGC. That story was also reported by NGC and by Superior. I believe that NGC would not have made a splash about the certification of these coins without first considering the rather obvious possible contention that the coins were AT. I have asked NGC to corroborate this, and to report what steps they took to verify the authenticity of the color on these coins. The statements made by the submitter, the press releases by NGC, the certification by NGC, and the photos of the lead seals are evidence that the coins are authentic in origin and color.

 

In light of the above, mere rumor and innuendo, most of which has come from folks who don't even collect toned Morgans and have no experience identifying AT vs NT coins (something which is very difficult, yet often possible), who don't even own any Battle Creek Morgans, and maybe have never even seen one, is simply inadequate to establish a contrary position.

 

If anyone has actual evidence that these coins are not NT, I would be most interested to hear or see it.

 

Best,

Sunnywood

 

[SkyMan]

Jeez, a guy stays out of the "coin boards" loop for a week or so and what crops up? Another BC thread!

 

Folks, it's really pretty simple. If you think BC coins are AT don't buy them. If you think they are NT then buy them for what you think is an appropriate price. WOW, isn't that a difficult solution?!!!

 

FWIW, I own ~30 BC coins and am very happy with the ones I own. On friday (before reading this thread or the one ATS) I was getting a 1957-P Franklin (for comparison purposes for a potential upgrade) out of my safe deposit box. In order to find it I opened several boxes, 2 of which included BC coins. I am happy to say that, as per norm, I Loved to look at several of them, and they looked to me the same way they did 2 to 3 years ago when I first purchased them.

 

Buy the coins that float your boat and enjoy them. Life is too short.