I heard the coin doctor posse is...............

[truthteller]

raising some serious cash to go after the bad guys. In conversation, I was told several million dollars are being raised. Coin doctors better start looking out, there's a serious horse whooping in your future.

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

I'm not too sure they can really do anything.

 

I also know a lot of the big reputable dealers who are beyong reproach in the minds of many would NOT want to stir up things with the coin doctors since those doctors just might start talking about who uses their services. That might destroy a lot of reputations in the industry.

[LAWMAN-migration]

I have 27 years of litigation experience and would be pleased to be retained with some of that money for attorneys fees, costs and expert witness fees to go after a few coin docs to make an example. Here in California we can sue them for fraud, unfair competition, false advertising, RICO (Racketeering Influenced Corrupt Organizations Act) and other fun stuff. Please PM me if you want to do anything more than talk about this. I have handled many cases in the numismatic and coin collecting areas and it would be my personal pleasure to never see phoney [!@#%^&^] at another coin show ever again.

[SilverEagleCoins]

When you say "coin doctors" are you talking counterfeiters, those who AT coins or those who just plain lie about the condition/provenance of their coins???

[gmarguli]

I have 27 years of litigation experience and would be pleased to be retained with some of that money for attorneys fees, costs and expert witness fees to go after a few coin docs to make an example. Here in California we can sue them for fraud, unfair competition, false advertising, RICO (Racketeering Influenced Corrupt Organizations Act) and other fun stuff. Please PM me if you want to do anything more than talk about this. I have handled many cases in the numismatic and coin collecting areas and it would be my personal pleasure to never see phoney [!@#%^&^] at another coin show ever again.

 

First off, didn't the Supreme Court recently take a dim view of using RICO to go after people the law wasn't intended for? Also, isn't it for ORGANIZED crime? Is there a coin doctor ring out there or is it a bunch of individuals?

 

You're going to have a hard time getting anyone.

 

Fraud? Possibly, but allowing a person to make up their own mind about a (doctored) coin and selling it for a price you both agree on is stretching the definition of fraud, in my opinion. However, if you talk it up knowing that it has been doctored is another thing. Having said that, I don't feel the grading services should be able to go after someone who doctored a coin and submitted it. I would put all the responsibility on the grading service and none on the submitter.

 

Unfair competition? Doubtful. Don't you have to prove fraud first to use this and even if you did prove fraud how are you gaining an unfair advantage over competitors?

 

False advertising is designed to protect the end/retail consumer. If it is true that most coin doctors sell into the wholesale market then would this still apply? And if it did, wouldn't you have to make false claims about the coin? Grading is subjective, so you'd have to make a claim about something else - i.e. the coin is original and non-tampered with.

 

 

[dakra]

giggle....

 

 

[cointagious]

I was told several million dollars are being raised.

 

as a trial attorney and speaking for fellow bar members, thank you!

 

 

p.s. they have no case to speak of. perhaps unjust enrichment but that's about it and you'd have a hard time making that play considering what goes on in this industry/hobby.

[Leothelion]

In defense of no-one, I would think if they were caught red-handed with the doctoring tools and not neccesarily by the coins themselves which would be difficult, a case could be made.

 

Leo

[gmarguli]

In defense of no-one, I would think if they were caught red-handed with the doctoring tools and not neccesarily by the coins themselves which would be difficult, a case could be made.

 

Leo

 

Since when is doctoring coins breaking any laws? Coin doctoring has been going on since coins have been collected, it's just that the doctors are getting better and there are some people who are putting major amounts of money on the line when the grade increases 1 point.

 

Many coin doctors are well known in the industry. They do work for a LOT of the players. I hate to say this, but the idea that people are going to go after them is kind of funny.

[James_OldeTowne]

Considering how many doctored coins have been certified by grading companies, you'd think that money might be better spent on educating graders on how to catch doctored coins. I'd also like to see some sort of audit committee that would, on an unannounced basis, drop in on, say, NGC and PCGS once in a while and make sure they are following an anonymous submission procedure. A good example would be our infamous Norweb Hibernia, which is a blatantly, unquestionably doctored coin, yet was certified MS-64 RD. But that is just one example of many, many doctored coins I have seen in holders. It's amazing!

 

If you put away one coin doctor, two more will just spring up in his place. But if you could stem the tide of doctored coins flooding the market at the source - encapsulation companies - you could pretty much completely shut off the flood.

 

Besides, what really constitutes a "doctored" coin? Isn't the real problem "misrepresented" coins?

 

[TonerGuy]

Hey, no offense to my brethen, lawyers should have no part of the "coin posse." It would be a tremendous waste of time and effort, not to mention judicial resources.

 

I agree with Greg, it is rather funny that the insiders are going after the insiders. It will never happen. It will take a true outsider with no real connections to the hobby to make a difference.

 

And the difference will be education combined with science, not legal theories.

 

Forget RICO, fraud, unjust enrichment.

 

I agree with James as well, the problem lies with the third party grading services. If you can force them to force the dealers to stop using the doctors to move metal, laser coins and artificially tone coins, then perhaps the doctoring can stop. As long as the doctors can get their coins into slabs, it'll continue. Perhaps then the lawyers may have a part in all of this. Think Class Action, much more harmful to the TPG's. With 1 good lawsuit, you might be take out a couple of them.

 

Michael

[truthteller]

All the responses are depressing . What is the coin industry to do? Does that mean coin doctors are here to stay? Or maybe the 'posse' is meerly for show with no teeth? I feel sad.

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

All the responses are depressing . What is the coin industry to do? Does that mean coin doctors are here to stay? Or maybe the 'posse' is meerly for show with no teeth? I feel sad.

 

The industry supports coin doctors. It is filled with the biggest bunch of lowlifes around. The customers also support doctors. As long as people want coins that look "X" the doctors will be there to give them what they want.

 

Coin doctors have been here since the beginning and they will be here forever.

 

The posse is for show. I'd bet many of the posse backers have used the coin doctors.

 

Don't feel sad, Arnold is your governor. That's got to make you a little happy.

[truthteller]

Don't feel sad, Arnold is your governor. That's got to make you a little happy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[TonerGuy]

Don't feel sad, Arnold is your governor. That's got to make you a little happy.

 

Yeah, he's going to ruin this state. That's what will make me sad.

[Tradedollarnut]

he's going to ruin this state

 

Too late!

[James_OldeTowne]

I don't think coin doctors are going anywhere. As long as coin-collecting is regarded as an industry by so many whose only goal is to make money, and lots of it, there will be deceit. Just as any used car lot is going to clean up used cars and make them appear to be in better condition than they are, the same is true of coins.

 

Dennis and I share this opinion: the "Coin Doctor Crime Fighters" is a great publicity stunt.

 

James

[Oldtrader3]

No one can "run" California. It would require a newly elected Legislature and and end to rule by referendum. That is why there was a conspicuous lack of seasoned California leaders in the race for Governor. No one wants the job, except an Actor!

[JadeRareCoin]

I must side with gmarguli on this one. James and I have discussed this many times and while it seems like a good idea on the surface, it is a completely unreasonable challenge to anyone........even Superman.

 

Some of the fundamental problems:

 

1) members of the team established to fight the coin doctors will, on any given day, have doctored coins in their display case. Flame away, but it's true. Anybody want to challenge me on this?

 

2) As others have stated, members of the posse have used the coin doctors in the past. Not all of them...not often, perhaps....but there is some overlap here.

 

3) what is "coin doctoring"? Will the posse knock down the doors of NCS and handcuff the "currators"? All of the major dealers dip coins. Ever walk by a supply dealer at a major show? They sell dip by the GALLON jug. That's right...by the GALLON!

 

4) The best coin doctors are known only to a few insiders. If anyone gets busted, it will be the wannabe coin doctors who brag to dealers about their special talents. These are not the dangerous guys. Rather, it's the guys who are very talented and very smart about keeping underground.

 

5) Collectors are known to doctor coins. Will the posse go door-to-door?

 

6) Will they bust Allen Stockton, who actually restores damaged coins to a collectible state again? Is filling a hole in a bust dollar considered "coin doctoring", assuming that it is disclosed to the next buyer?

 

You get the point. The coin doctor posse idea is completely unreasonable. It's great advertising for the dealers involved. Hmmm.....so if Jade Coin joins the posse, will we get to put a sticker in our store window that says "Proud Members of the Coin Doctor Posse"? Maybe put a little icon on our web site that states that we are against coin doctoring? That would give would be customers a bit of assurance that our coins are not doctored. To me, this is equivalent to the BBB icon that graces half of the ads in the Yellow Pages. It means nothing.

 

A few years ago, James and I were at the CSNS convention in Indianapolis. Those of you who remember this show will recall that it was poorly attended. As always, we stayed until the bitter end. By Sunday, 75% of the dealers had left. We spent at least 3 hours negotiating the purchase of a Flowing Hair Dollar from a nationally known dealer. It was slow, so we all had the time to sit and talk. We liked the price, but we knew that the coin had problems. In short, it was polished and did not look natural at all. Finally, after a few hours of saying "no thanks", the dealer said, "okay, okay, come with me, we can take care of this". I followed him to a table in a remote area. He opened his suitcase and revealed a complete mobil laboratory. No kidding. He had everything; viles, many chemicals, neutralizers, q-tips, pads, etc. I couldn't believe it. He set-up a little experiment and....viola...he changed the color of the coin and dulled the polished surfaces. It did look better, but it was still not natural. He said, "okay, so know are you interested in buying this". I told him that we did not have the money at the time and declined the offer. When I went back to our table, I told James the story and we had a good laugh, followed by a chill up our spines. Remember, this guy is a national dealer. He would be a likely candidate for the coin doctor posse.

 

 

[truthteller]

Dennis,

 

That's a great(but sad) story about the mobile lab. Think what they could do with a mobile bus lab. Coin doctor, will travel.

 

TRUTH

[nwcs]

Since I don't think there is much the posse can do to prevent doctors from plying their trade, perhaps the raised money is to follow a policy used by the DEA for coca growers in Columbia. You pay them money to raise coffee instead and then pay for the coffee. Perhaps the posse will pay the top coin doctors not to doctor coins? That might be an effective approach.

[James_OldeTowne]

Isn't there also a problem where some people just plain like doctored coins? By this, I mean coins that I see on ebay that have obviously been heated up or something to make them bright blue and brilliant orange. They get bids, so maybe the fact is that some people actually do like them! Or maybe they don't know any better.

 

Still, as long as you can go to any major show and see literally hundreds and hundreds of doctored coins encapuslated by PCGS and NGC, it will be hard to take the effort seriously. Maybe all that money they're raising could be used to buy up encapsulated doctored coins! Come to think of it, we just happen to have a heavily doctored Woods Hibernia for sale.... and it comes without a Norweb pedigree, too!

 

James

[Newmismatist]

I have 27 years of litigation experience and would be pleased to be retained with some of that money for attorneys fees, costs and expert witness fees to go after a few coin docs to make an example. Here in California we can sue them for fraud, unfair competition, false advertising, RICO (Racketeering Influenced Corrupt Organizations Act) and other fun stuff. Please PM me if you want to do anything more than talk about this. I have handled many cases in the numismatic and coin collecting areas and it would be my personal pleasure to never see phoney [!@#%^&^] at another coin show ever again.

 

Lawman, I can trump your 27 years with 32 years plus 2 years spent working for an appellate judge. I think lawyers serve a useful public purpose in protecting the public, but the above sounds a little more like a vigilante committee out to lynch someone. Should we hang ‘em first and then have the trial or is it the other way around?

 

Well, before the coin Doctor vigilantes get their dander raised too high and start lynching people, perhaps we need someone to give us a few definitions:

 

What exactly is the “crime” of coin Doctoring?

Who’s guilty of what crime? (ie, the Doctor, the grading service or the selling dealer?)

What’s the penalty for the crime?

 

Let’s examine some of the coin "doctoring" practices:

 

1. I have a silver Franklin half - its just been sitting in a 2x2 envelope for several years, I look at it, it has dark mottled toning, looks not fugly, but close. I dip it in a diluted solution of jeweluster - the ugly toning “evaporates” off, Before, I couldn’t see the nice lines on the bell, they were obscured by the dark toning, now there they are. The luster is great, a very attractive coin (to me and maybe a lot of other collectors). I have changed the surface of that coin. Just like a doctor using a little “medicine” to clear up a pretty girl’s acne, I’ve made a coin that was marginal and maybe little more than bullion, into a collectible coin. Is this a crime? For this “crime” what’s the penalty? (I’ve read more than 1 post that claims that dipping & removing toning is a crime that should be punished - what’s the law? - ie: who defines the crime? And what’s the penalty? Who’s my judge? Is the jury composed of only those who consider dipping one of the 7 deadly sins of coin collecting?

 

2. I own a very rare pattern coin, composition Copper-nickel. It’s a proof, has wonderful fields, to the uninitiated it looks hairlined because of die striations. It's in a slab. It has cancer! There’s a small foreign substance sitting on the surface, and it's starting to turn green and it's growing! It wasn’t there when I bought the coin, but there it is. I send it to NCS. They perform surgery, remove the cancer, neutralize whatever was causing this spot, and because we diagnosed this “cancer” early, successfully removed it, the coin is now “healthy” again, and is again entombed in its “protective” plastic coffin. Am I guilty of conspiracy? Will I and NCS be charged with high crimes and misdeamenors, declared guilty and hung at first light by the coin vigilantes? (Isn’t that what a posse is - a group of vigilantes that takes the law into its own hands?)

 

3. A 15 year old, has taken one of his father’s Lincoln pennies from his dad’s stash of coins. Its sort of a browny with just a little reddish tinge, has wheat ears on the reverse. Bored in his chemistry class, he puts it into a mild acid solution - Coin is now a bright copper color! Holds it up to admire his handiwork, his best buddy who collects coins stops by his desk, picks up the coin, says “cool, a 09-S VDB, too bad someone cleaned it”. Light bulb goes off in 15 year olds’ brain - certain death when his dad finds out what he’s done. Goes to his chemistry teacher - asks what can I do to make not so shiny - Chemistry teacher takes coin over-night - next day returns coin to panic stricken teen-ager, coin is no longer a bright copper color, now it’s a nice reddish brown, but still “brighter” than it was before bored 15 year old “shined it up”. Puts coin back in dad’s stash. Prays dad never notices what has happened. A month later, dad sends coin together with others to XXXX grading service who slab it as a 65RB. Dad is delighted - thought maximum grade would be 64BN. Who’s guilty of what crime?

 

4. Well known coin dealer/doctor (DD) is given a coin by another reputable dealer (RD) that has nasty grade limiting spots on coin. RD asks DD - can anything be done? I paid $XXXX for this coin and it only slabs 62 & I’ll loose $XXXX when I sell it. DD looks at coin says yes spots can be removed, & I think it will slab 64 if the spots aren’t there. DD removes spots, retones area of spot removal, coin looks 3 grades better and in fact is slabbed by XXXX grading service, the most “reputable and conservative” TPGS. RD sells coin for 5x what he paid for it and gives DD one-half the profit.

 

5. Same players as 4, but this time a over-dipped, washed out silver coin, not saleable. DD “tones” the coin (takes 6 months) coin grades and is looks like a low grade MS 62, is now slabable and saleable - RD sells coin at no profit, owes DD a big favor. Who’s guilty of what crime? Suppose the “retoning” takes 3 years?

 

6. A different DD knows how to “tone” nickel coins vibrant colors. Some slab, some don’t - sells the slabbed coins to dealers and the raw coins on ebay. Who’s guilty of what crime?

Does it make any difference if the coins are Morgan dollars and most don’t slab, but a few do?

 

7. Treasure salvage company finds $100 Million of gold bullion and gold coins that have sat on the bottom of the ocean for 150 years. Coins are encrusted with calcium salts, barnacles, and other accretions from their 150 year stay in the ocean, Several museum curators are hired by the treasure salvage company. They remove the encrustation from the coins and the bullion bars with various types of acids and sometimes by mechanical methods. Coins are sold to major notional coin dealers who have them slabbed by major grading services. Some become condition census coins for Type1 $20 Liberty gold. Who’s guilty of what crime?

 

8. You are in a rural area near Philadelphia with your brand new metal detector. You find a large metal disk, size of a silver dollar, you wash off the dirt. It’s a black old silver dollar, you get out your magnifying glass - beneath the blackness and encrustation you can barely make of the numbers “1 8 0 4". Should you A) Sell it on ebay in its natural state of preservation just as you found it? B) Have it conserved by a professional conservation company? If you or someone else (like NCS) cleans this coin are you engaged in the crime of “coin doctoring”? Suppose its “cleaned” by the Dealer Doctor referenced in item 4 above? Who’s guilty of what crime?

 

I'm not sure if everyone is aware that there are books published on the cleaning and preservation of coins, museums do it all the time, some very well, some very badly. Virtually all ancient coins are cleaned before they are sold. I believe I took a seminar years ago at a major coin show sponsered by either the ANA or the organization that sponsered the show on the subject of cleaning and preserving coins. As I remember, what I was taught is exactly what the coin "doctors" do every day.

 

Read Q David Bowers introduction to Patterns in the new Judd pattern book - its informative and it discusses cleaning of coins.

 

Before we start lynching "coin doctors", lets define the "crime".

 

BTW, every scenerio listed above (except #8) is either real or a variation of practices that routinely happen in this hobby. I'm guilty of #s 1 & 2. #3 is fanciful, but has likely happened deliberately & not by accident; I see coins that have been done like 4-6 all the time in slabbed holders by ALL of the major grading services. # 7 is the SS Central America treasure, & #8 is in my dreams.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nwcs]

James, then maybe what the coin posse can do is create a "legitimate" alteration shop. Where everything done is documented and services clearly made available. Maybe like a full-service NCS. Then coins sent in for doctoring can be doctored correctly (if possible), documented, and tracked in some manner.

[chinook]

I kind of like story # 3.

[James_OldeTowne]

NWCS, that's a very intriguing idea! I wonder if any else has thought of that? Kind of like an "NCS" that can go above and beyond "curating" to outright "improvement"? Such as plugging holes, etc? Very, very intriguing!!

 

James

[Dry]

I dont understand what the big fuss is over coin doctors. If a coin is made into a counterfeit (adding a mintmark, etc) that is absolutely heinous. But, adding AT, filling holes, etc. is not a big deal to me. I understand getting mad if you later find out that your 5K coin is now only worth $500. I get it. But the buyer has to be held responsible too! Here is my reasoning.

 

COINS ARE COLLECTIBLES NOT INVESTMENTS. If you cant afford to lose money on a coin, dont buy it! I buy within my budget. I do my investing with mutual funds, not PR70Dcams with rainbow toning. I collect for fun, its that simple. If I like the coin and can afford to spoil myself, I buy it. You guys that are mad over losing money due to buying a coin that has been "doctored" (without your knowledge and consent of course) are playing a game that I only play at the racetrack. Its called GAMBLING. If you cant afford to lose, dont play. This is just my opinion, as I am definately not in the same league of spending and/or coin knowledge as alot of collectors.

 

Those of us that can afford to spend alot of extra cash on a hobby are truly spoiled. Its kind of like your neighbor buying a new Lambohrghini and complaining that the roof leaks. Its hard to feel sorry about him being "victimized".

[nwcs]

>I dont understand what the big fuss is over coin doctors.

 

You're kidding me, right? Well, if you ever buy something that was grossly misrepresented in the future I hope you don't complain about it. According to your reasoning, it's partially your fault.

[Dry]

I guess Im more of a realist and quite possibly, very jaded. I only put trust in those who have proven they are trustworthy (I have a short list). Buying a coin is not much different than buying a used car. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I am mature enough to accept this without placing all the blame on the seller, his mechanic, the dealership that sold it or the company that produced it.

[nwcs]

But our legal system does assume if the seller did not disclose the information of alteration that they are liable. For example, if a used car's odometer was tampered with by the seller, it's a criminal act. How is the analogy different for a coin doctoring who is disguising flaws and selling it as a higher grade than it actually is?