Full Skirt Line --FSL--Designation for Walkers?--poll

[jackson64]

we already have FB mercs, FT rosies, FH slq's and FBL Frankies....collectors of Walkers already pay premiums for fully struck skirt lines and a thumb.....should there be a Walker designation like the others have?...maybe an FSL designation?

 

here's a poll.....and opinions yeah or nay also sought...

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

Any attribute to squeeze a few more bucks out of collectors, will it ever end? How about full hand, full RH fingers, full skirt lines, full eagle leg feathers on Walker's. Will full heads on Walker's be far behind, or full talons on the eagle, or full liberty breasts. Most of these attributes are already evaluated on Walker's by buyers anyhow. Why give third parties and dealers more pricing influence by adding these attributes to grading.

 

Watching the pricing on FT Roosevelt dimes go into the stratoshere over the past three years has convinced me that small attribute differences in registry point criteria have gone into the ozone where I don't want to be.

[EZ_E]

The only designation that I care to accept is the full head designation for SLQ's. All the rest is just being anal, IMO. I couldn't care less about full steps or full bell lines, etc. The grading services blur the lines with these special attributions anyway and the designation does not necessarily imply a full strike. I agree with Charlie that they're around only to milk collectors out of their hard earned cash. It all boils down to a marketing ploy and I choose not to play.

[physics-fan3.14]

I personally prefer to collect FBL Franklins, so I can understand the desire for the fully struck designations. I was not aware of the full skirt lines issue, however. To me, someone admittedly unknowledgeable on Walkers, most skirt lines seem to be well struck. (I haven't really paid attention that much, though) Could you show pictures of fully struck skirt lines, and not fully struck? How rare relatively are Full Skirt Walkers? The thing with a full strike designation, to me, is that these fully struck specimens should, for the most part, be significantly rarer than non fully struck specimens (perhaps around 5% for the scarce issues, up to 15- 20% or higher for the better struck dates). The other strike designation that seems to be catching on, although the series is much less popular to collect overall, is the Full Talons SBAs. This designation is not recognized by any of the TPGs, but collectors are willing to pay and do pay premiums for well struck SBAs.

[MikeInFL]

How about "full hand"? I suppose there would be none then.

 

I don't think I've ever seen a fully struck MS walker, but then again I've not looked for one.

[James_OldeTowne]

There are way too many grade qualifiers now. No more, please.

[D.D.]

I would like to find these fully struck Walkers on my own without the designation.

 

[supertooth]

jackson 64------ This has two sides.

 

One side says it would be great to have your slabs marked that way. Afterall, then your coins would be worth more etc.etc. You could bring more folks into collecting Walkers----everyone would end up collecting every odd ball thing that 'some' Walkers do offer. Those of us who collect Walkers a lot do indeed know about some of these Walker quirks. Heck, people might even learn to pay attention to die cracks on Walkers.

 

But, like my dear friend D.D. states, let us find the coins of our interest on our own. Again, those of us who are truely into these coins----don't need ANY TPGS telling us what to look for. We already know what is important to us. An example of this is simply trying to buy a fully struck up "S" minted Walker of the 1940's. I have purchased these pieces at MS 60--64 prices---then put them into MS65 holders. Why would I want to pay 65 prices for these pieces---if I can find them raw at 60-- 64 prices? Why would I want to argue with any TPGS over how they graded a certain coin?

 

But, let us go back to the other side for a moment. Being a collector who believes in educating ALL collectors as much as they want to learn----well, then you might agree that ALL the information should be available and shared. So, we await the definitive Walker book which includes such information. As of now, IMHO, this Walker book does NOT exist. We do have a couple of real decent books----but NONE put all the information under one cover.

 

So, in the end, as our hobby has evolved with the Vams----and all the rest of them----so too will the collecting of Walkers evolve. In time, we will see how it all washes out. Take it from one who knows---there is a lot of odd ball stuff to look for---if you are of a mind to play with that kind of stuff. But, IMHO, before we start down that road----collectors ought to be able to identify counterfeit 1921 coins----before they worry about other things. Bob [supertooth]

[BillJones]

The only designation I care for is the "Full Head" for Standing Liberty quarters. And even that one is not good enough because there are other areas of the coin that are just as important IMO, that don't get a review.

 

We don't need any more strike quality designations. We have too many already.

[DC Dawg]

I almost hate to ask this question because I don't want to start a war, but...

 

Why are these designations necessary? Wouldn't a Walker without full skirt lines be a lower grade than one that did? Just like a Standing Liberty Quarter... if it did not have a "full head," shouldn't it receive a lower grade? It would be the same for the other designations where the sharpness of the features are part of the grade?

 

Would an MS66 Mercury Dime be an MS66 when another is graded MS66-FSB? If it has full split bands, shouldn't it be graded higher? Or the other MS66 be graded lower?

 

Just my thought.

 

Scott

[EZ_E]

Scott...to answer your question....NO.

[TheMightyDuke]

I heartily agree with Oldtrader3. This has gotten so far out of control. I do admit, though, I did have a top 5 FS Jefferson set a few years ago, and sold off, and did pretty well, I must add. Full Steps on Monticello, I think is one designation that is a valid one. A Full Head on an SLQ, man, that is a thing of beauty. FT/FB on Roosies, I would draw the line there...though, its on the favorably justifiable side, but just barely, as the bands, if not fully seperated, can look globby and just nasty. Full Bell Lines are at that drawn line also, but again, on the favorably justifiable side ....Full Bell Lines, if the strike is HAMMERED, can and do make the coin look tremendous, but strikes of that nature are few and far between. Those types of designations, I can see being enough of an anomaly to make a difference in premiums (look at the the talk in recent years (like the last 2) about designating Full Talons on SBA's), Full Skirt Lines, I think we are being picayune now, because we see the prices of these specially designated coins bringing big bucks. Look at the '53-S Frankie...in MS65, its a $90 coin, in MS65FBL, its, well, we all know its VERY expensive. Look at the 1969-D Jefferson...NONE graded with FS. In Oct, 2001...the 69-D in MS 66 was a $10 (I actually have the PCGS price guide, from Oct 4th, 2001 that I printed out, as thats when I was into the series) . The pop back in '03 was 18 in MS65, 9 in MS66...none higher...the $$ for the MS65 was $5, MS66 was $10. TODAY, withouth there being a FS coin for that date STILL, the MS65 is still low, at $30 (600 % in 4 years, still not bad), but look at the MS66...today thats a $500 coin (and get two Jeff guys, if the coin is well struck, in a bidding war, and that $500 is out the window)....and the pops TODAY in the '69-D are 32 in MS66, 109 in MS65. IF there is ever a '69-D Jeff with FS made...MAN, 'Alice, to the MOON' money!!!

 

BUT, isnt there SOMETHING on just about EVERY coin that, if struck early on a new pair of die's, stands out, like FT/FB, FBL, FH, FS...? Its us, the collectors that allowed it to happen...are we going to continue to pick every little thing out on every coin just to have our coins worth more (well, duh, yeah)? But, in the long run, all these designations can KILL the hobby. Look at SBA's (and I know about them, I have the #16 set here, and have paid some good money for some, and prices have gone crazy with just the coin itself, as its a hard coin to get in high grade. Put Full Talons on that, and it may just take my 1980-S in MS67 that I paid $85 for, which is now almost a $400 coin. Suddenly, my MS67 that USED to be close to a $400 coin, could be worth as much as an MS66 with Full Talons, or bring it down to an $85 coin again. I am not in the hobby to make millions, but WOULD like to see my coins increase in value, we ALL do. Who knows how much damage it could do across the board...collectors would be up in arms, and the TPG's would be taking it on the chin-BAD! Then theres costs for sending in for re-slabbing, reviewing, etc...and that makes more of a mess. I say just leave things as are, how much more complicated does one want to make a HOBBY? Prices are strong for quality/good/low pop material now, and those are the coins that will stay strong (for every series). If the TPG's DO start adopting special designations, you will start to see it for every series, and that would spell BIG trouble for the TPG's, the collector, everyone..it WONT be good for the hobby. We have accepted what we have, quite nicely. We know what to look for on coins in the series we like. Do we want to start double looking at our coins? My 1980-S PCGS MS67 SBA is a SCREAMER, and I have thought about an attempt at an upgrade...hypothetically, if I DO send it in, and it DOES come back 68, I have hit the jackpot....now, if it doesnt have Full Talons, and Full Talons is a reality, I put a gun to my head as I just lost 90% of its worth. To stir the pot now, when the hobby is strong, and those of us in it would like to see it stay strong , I cringe to think what could happen to the hobby. Thats not even considering WHO is going to be responsible for creating the specifications qualifying a coin for a certain designation.

[MikeInFL]

The only "full" moniker I would support is "full details" (ala QDB) for a fully struck coin. The rest, to me, is just marketing to the inexperienced...Mike

[hoard]

For me the coin either has a full strike or it does not, with full strike implying full details, while the grading levels remain the same. I do not believe it would harm the hobby to have coins graded as Full Strike MSxx verses the standard MSxx grade. Of course this designation would likely bring us the inevitable argument of who's full strike was more full strike. In fact, as I think about it, that is probably the reason the choice was made to concentrate on the one apparent feature that may have usually been weakly struck i.e. head details, band details, steps, bell lines, for series that tended to have weakly struck examples.

 

Personally, I believe the designations were an attempt to identify better quality examples of certain series. If people want grading to begin designating skirt lines so be it, but they may as well include breast feathers on Peace dollars.

 

 

[jackson64]

good answers e1...I have feelings both ways

 

#1 reason for:--the sight unseen aspect and bad pics

 

#1 reason against--still can be subjective, that MS65 1917-D dime with 99.5% FB is either a $1500 list or a $6500 list depending on whether it makes full bands...these are just 1 reason for each side, which appears to be heavily against more designations..

[TheMightyDuke]

MikeInFl has hit the nail SQUARELY on the head. I am NOT a proponent of the designations in the first place, but I WOULD go as far as 'Full Details'. That covers every series across the board fairly. Do I dare say, its akin to 'First Strikes', or 'Early Strikes'? Regardless, we all know superior coins fetch superior prices. Personally, if a coin is going to bet an MS68 at NGC/PCGS, it BETTER be of Full Detail and HAMMERED. Those of you that collect FT/FB, FS, FBL, etc....have seen examples WITH the desired attributes to attain the designation, but other than the desired attributs, have been, well, dogs, to some sort (not to demean the 'puppy post' that was resurrected yesterday), have you not? I am NOT a fan of TPG's using 'First Strikes' (I may have posted it before, but recently I purchased an 1979-D SBA 'First Day of Issue, which totally baffles me anyway, as NGC didnt start grading till 1986, so if someone can explaing THAT to me-besides an obviously held over box o' SBA's with a date stamp)...'Early Releases'/'First Day of Issue' floats with me, because it CAN be determined, through dating (not like, 'Bachelor #1, have you ever...., ). Other than that, enough is enough. Here's that 1979 SBA 'First Day of Issue' Again, other than some sort of dated material (and the holder of the coin must have been one patient SOB, or just totally forgot about them), could someone tell me how this can garner "FDOI'???

 

[Tradedollarnut]

The only "full" moniker I would support is "full details" (ala QDB) for a fully struck coin. The rest, to me, is just marketing to the inexperienced...Mike

 

I agree with this. Personally, I absolutely hate the strike designations because they can be put on coins that aren't fully struck. And when you start paying huge premiums for something that may or may not be there then you're a plastic collector.

[jom]

I actually try NOT to pay the premium by collecting the non-whatever coins. I certainly have some Full whatever coins but I think there are some great deals in non-Full designations.

 

As to more "full" designations. We have too many already (in my opinion there shouldn't be any). Hell, we have too many MS grades as it is let alone Red, RB, Brown, Full This, Full That. Urgh.....

 

jom

[Coin]

First day covers/set ? ( first Day of Issue) Did they have them for/with SBA's?

[WoodenJefferson]

First thing that comes to mind when thinking about So-Called Designations, is the fact that someone other than you has already subjectively made an opinion on a representative coin.

 

The fun part of collecting is learning about the quirks of a series and then finding those attributes with-in the general masses. Once you start with other designations, everyone and their brother now claims to have that designation on their coin.

 

I like the idea of superior struck coins getting that little extra that separates those with mediocre struck examples, but designations solely for marketing vehicles are nothing more than hype for the miss-informed

 

Until there is wide acceptance that there is indeed a need for a designation like Full Skirt Lines on Walkers, for now, let’s allow the collectors to determine what criteria is required for a fully struck specimen.

 

~Woody~

 

 

[pendragon1998]

How about a "Hammered" designation?

 

Personally, if I was looking for a designation for walkers, it would be 'full hand'. And it would probably help with sight-unseen bids. Agreed, however, there would be issues with any designation system.

[DC Dawg]

First day covers/set ? ( first Day of Issue) Did they have them for/with SBA's?

No. The Mint did not issue these for the SBAs. There is a cover for the 2000 Sac Dollar.

 

Scott

[Coin]

Thanks Scott ,

...... then the Mighty Duke has a good question about FDOI SBA's ...how did they determine the FDOI designation for these 1979 dollars?