Coin security and carbon/copper spots

[stinkycheese1]

I keep having this recurring nightmare about people breaking into my house and all the coins being stolen. I've seen in the show on discovery channel "It takes a thief" that thieves can just break in, use a dolly with 2 people or so, and whisk away any safe that isn't bolted down into the concrete.

 

I have a safe, but I would like it to be bolted to the ground so it cannot be stolen. What would you recommend to do to do this? What supplies would I need?

 

Also, to make this thread interesting. What coin dreams do you have?

 

And also, are copper spots/carbon spots common on pure gold? I have a gold 1 gram bar from pamp suisse that looks to have either a copper or carbon spot on it. I know its perfectly normal but since pure gold has so little copper in it I was wondering how common this phoneomenom is.

 

Thanks

 

[jesbroken]

Stinky,

If you have something someone wants badly, they will probably get it-no matter what you do. Some advice--Take some really great pics of what you have(or have someone else do it for you) so that you can admire them when you want and place your valuable coins in a bank lock box(you can always go visit them). Keep some lower value coins to fool with at home. Then let the creeps steal what you have there without making it hard on them. You are not only endangering your coins, but you and your family could also be hurt during a robbery. Some people feel they have nothing to lose.

Good luck.

Jim

[TomB]

Safe deposit box.

[Just Bob]

Safe deposit box.

 

I agree.

[michael]

Safe deposit box.

 

i second this notion (thumbs u

 

 

[ldhair]

It's best not to leave anything at home that you can not afford to loose.

It's helpful to pick a bank that is really close to home and possibly a second one near work.

 

As far as bolting a safe down. I feel it's a good idea with small safes.

I like to do anything possible to slow down the bad guys.

The first thing to do is check to see if the safe is made to be bolted down.

They make some really great anchors to bolt things to concrete.

Wedge anchors are probably best for this type of deal but all it takes is a bigger pry bar and the safe is still gone. Slowing them down is the best you can hope for.

 

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Safe deposit box.

 

By far easier and cheaper than trying to bolt a safe to the floor. In order to do that, you would need a special safe (putting straps around a safe is stupid, they'll just cut the straps). Then you would have to do all kinds of messy work in your house, and if you ever want to move, you have to do it all over again. Really, just get a safety deposit box.

[bsshog40]

As the old saying goes, anything locked only keeps an honest man honest. If you worry about theft, then I agree with others on a safety deposit box. Also another thought for the mind is to not brag about what you have to people that live around you that do not need to know.

[ldhair]

Also another thought for the mind is to not brag about what you have to people that live around you that do not need to know.

Very true. Lots of people get hit by people they know.

[CHABSENTIA]

I wouldnt be too sure about a Safe being Safe. I have heard not ony of Home Invasions but there was a case the other day where somebody broke in to a House and stole a safe.Probably wasn't very big

 

 

When I was a Manager in Retail they had one of those Horses outside the Store where kids put in a Quarter and it went back and forth etc. I kept telling them that we ought to bring it inside but nobody would listen. One morning it was msssing .It would have take several people or a Pick-up truck to move it. If you brag or talk around the neighbors then you never know what extent people will go to if they think you have valuables and even if they aren'y that valuable then many people might think so.

 

 

If it bothers you then you need a Safety Depoit Box..

[CHABSENTIA]

Some people might feel they didn't have to move the safe but just blow the doors off etc. A bigger problem would be people breaking in to your House and threatening your Family if you did not open it.

 

 

I would go the Safety Deposit Box route close to home and if it still bothers you then there are Home Alarm Systems..I have three small dogs that raise Hell at the slightest noise and I also have Guns which I would not hesitate to use.

[BULLY]

I keep having this recurring nightmare about people breaking into my house and all the coins being stolen. I've seen in the show on discovery channel "It takes a thief" that thieves can just break in, use a dolly with 2 people or so, and whisk away any safe that isn't bolted down into the concrete.

 

I have a safe, but I would like it to be bolted to the ground so it cannot be stolen. What would you recommend to do to do this? What supplies would I need?

 

Security is OBVIOUSLY important to any collector, particularly those whose collections become valuable over time. There was an article in the most recent issue of The Numismatist (the ANA magazine) about one older woman's childhood collection being stolen from her parent's home at gunpoint.

 

Responses I've seen posted here are tending to focus on safes that are probably something that anyone could carry away, or even that it might just take two guys to carry away. For the record, I do not SELL safes, nor am I an insurance salesman. I am just a coin collector who happens to take security and insurance seriously. First, some statistics about crime we should all be aware of that are surprising, based on police reports:

 

http://www.libertysafe.com/homesecurity.lasso?page=2

 

From that site: "You might think cash and jewelry are the top items stolen during a home burglary, but they are actually fifth on the list. Stereo equipment is fourth, followed by video equipment—grouped as TVs, VCRs and cameras. Guns are the number one items stolen in a home burglary. Can you guess what’s second? Booze and cigarettes! Go figure."

 

Further: "Police reports indicate most thieves want to get their jobs done as quickly as possible to reduce their chances of getting caught. Most break-ins are the smash and grab type—getting their job done in 10 minutes or less—and surprisingly between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. in the afternoon. Young males, 18 to 26, most often commit these crimes. Their goal is to be gone before police can respond to a home security system or a neighbor’s phone call."

 

"A residential security or gun safe compliments an alarm or surveillance system by protecting the front-end of a break-in. Thieves know they don’t have much time—so they smash, grab and take anything of value to them. Experienced burglars are even bold enough to go about their business with the alarm blaring away. And don’t think your neighbors will come to the rescue. They would rather stay away than put themselves in harms way.

 

When a thief enters a home or office, the real deterrent seems to be the addition of a residential security or gun safe. Police reports indicate that when a thief sees a shiny, heavy-duty safe they generally leave without taking a thing. They're left to mumble, "Anything of value is probably in that safe and we don't have the time nor the tools, so let's just go to the next house.""

 

Safes such as the ones on this site: http://www.libertysafe.com/default.lasso

(not a brand endorsement, just an example), are large enough that they cannot simply be "carried away." Depending on the size of the safe, it may weight 800-1,200 pounds, EMPTY -- much less filled with a coin collection for instance. If you are concerned about weighing it down right away, get boxes of rolls of cents to store at the bottom of the safe. Costco sometimes carries some of these safes! Also, sometimes it may seem appealing to buy it directly from the manufacturer, but the prices can often be equal when buying locally from an authorized dealer. Some states offer sales tax exemptions because they are, in theory, GUN safes, and they want to "protect children." Your use is your business.

 

Further, depending on your doorways, where it is placed in the house, these safes could take five or more professional safe moving men literally hours to move INTO your house, again EMPTY. Imagine thieves trying to get it out, FULL? Remember the snatch and grab statistics from the police?

 

Coin insurance companies (Like AXA through the Hugh Wood Agency, as arranged for members of the ANA to purchase coin collection coverage specifically), recognize and are familiar with these safes as home security. You may check with your insurer to be certain.

 

However, remember the following:

 

1. Most homeowners policies do not cover coin collections, and if they do, only up to a VERY LIMITED AMOUNT, like a couple hundred dollars.

 

2. Most homeowners insurance companies do not specialize in coin collections. Unlike with jewelry items, while they may be WILLING to "schedule" a coin collection on your policy, you may find the rates to be exorbitant.

 

3. Contents of safe deposit boxes are NOT insured by banks, nor, generally by your homeowners policy. While break-ins to safe-deposit boxes at banks are rare, they do occur.

 

4. Further, safe deposit boxes are subject to destruction, thus insurance should be considered. Imagine if your priceless collection of coins was stored in a safe deposit box in New Orleans or anywhere in a bank along the Gulf Coast of Mississippi or Alabama during and following hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and your bank (and it's safe deposit box and thus your coins) was literally UNDERWATER.

 

5. Again, for ANA members, visit www.money.org for a link to information about the agency they have contracted with to offer coverage to for their members, Hugh Wood, through AXA, a highly rated insurance company, for specialized coin collection coverage, at rates far less than most homeowners insurance companies who know nothing about coins. Rates also vary on whether you store your coins in a safe deposit box, at home, or both, so you have options.

 

Last advice if buying a large safe for home use:

Whatever size you think you need: DOUBLE IT, or buy the largest one you can possibly afford! The reality is that the price differential between a 25 cubic foot safe and a 50 cubic foot safe for instance may be $700 -- if you are spending $2,000 on a safe to start with, $700 more is a lot cheaper than buying a SECOND safe for another $2,000, and you'll be AMAZED at how quickly you can fill it!

 

Laptops, old photos, important documents, jewelry, or just larger collections alone -- you name it.

[physics-fan3.14]

4. Further, safe deposit boxes are subject to destruction, thus insurance should be considered. Imagine if your priceless collection of coins was stored in a safe deposit box in New Orleans or anywhere in a bank along the Gulf Coast of Mississippi or Alabama during and following hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and your bank (and it's safe deposit box and thus your coins) was literally UNDERWATER.

 

I thought that's what silica gel packets were for, to absorb all the moisture

 

Seriously, interesting perspective and facts. :thumbsup:

[BULLY]

Other security measures, partially alluded to by others on this board, in addition to a good LARGE safe, an alarm system, a safe deposit box, AND insurance for your coin collection:

 

1. Don't talk about your collection publicly, to strangers, or others you don't know.

 

2. If you receive coin publications (yes, even The Numismatist), you may want to consider having them delivered to a post office box, so if mail is intercepted, it doesn't scream "a coin collector lives here" and there are potentially valuables inside.

 

3. Don't even discuss it with your mailman. I order things from eBay and get packages delivered. Occasionally he'll ask me what the heck I collect. I was very vague -- "a little bit of everything" but nothing big - stuffed animals for a kid or teddy bear figurines, tea cups (nothing of consequence is the message to send).

 

4. Don't discuss safe deposit box contents with your banker. If you are adding or removing things, go in with a bag or case that is already weighted in some way so that whatever you add or remove doesn't look conspicuous when you leave, so you aren't a mugging target as you leave. Depending on your bank location, this could be more serious than elsewhere, but don't be lured into a false sense of security because you think your location is "safe" - look at bold daylight bank robberies in small rural towns, practically "no crime" zones.

 

5. Don't forget an inventory of your coins, in the event of a loss. While your insurer may not require it for the policy, they WILL require it for replacement in the event of a loss.

Some people handwrite it, some people save or scan receipts, some people use Excel or another spreadsheet software. I've seen databases advertised specifically for coin collections, that calculate value. Photos, scans, digital videos are good too. Personally, I created a Microsoft Access database, extractable to Excel. Do what works, as long as you do it.

 

Whatever you do, the results are best stored off-site, in that safe deposit box, or in a large, fire-proof safe, or even with a relative on the other side of the country. Imagine if your records were in a safe-deposit box in New Orleans after Katrina and Rita? Maybe a CD with scanned copies or photos sent to a trusted relative across country is worthwhile.

 

This all may sound paranoid, but if you value your collection, many levels of precaution are necessary to protect it. To anyone who has experienced a loss of any kind, or who has known anyone who has, you will understand moreso. You don't want to buy that alarm or safe AFTER you are robbed. You don't want to buy that insurance policy AFTER you've been cleaned out.

[BULLY]

4. Further, safe deposit boxes are subject to destruction, thus insurance should be considered. Imagine if your priceless collection of coins was stored in a safe deposit box in New Orleans or anywhere in a bank along the Gulf Coast of Mississippi or Alabama during and following hurricanes Katrina and Rita, and your bank (and it's safe deposit box and thus your coins) was literally UNDERWATER.

 

I thought that's what silica gel packets were for, to absorb all the moisture

 

Seriously, interesting perspective and facts. :thumbsup:

 

Cute, there's one in every bunch.

 

But you're right about one thing, those silica gel packets are good in your safe. Larger safes, such as those on the site I mentioned, generally COME with (or have it as an option) a dehumidifier to protect your collection.

 

But, the silica gel packets are always nice to have around for drawers, or around coins, or EVEN in safe deposit boxes. Do you know if your bank has humidity control in their vault? Is it in a basement location that is more damp? Are you in Florida (prone to being more damp) or maybe in Fairbanks (more dry)?

 

Personally, whenever I get those silica gel packets or tubes in bottles of pills or vitamins, I save them and use them in my safe and/or safe deposit boxes. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle!

 

[Just Bob]

 

I thought that's what silica gel packets were for, to absorb all the moisture

 

 

Cute, there's one in every bunch.

 

 

Actually, there are several in this bunch!

[stinkycheese1]

Thanks for the helpful replies.

 

No one has responded yet about 999.9 gold (basically pure gold) to contain copper spots. Can this happen with pure gold?

 

[zrlevin]

No, since there is no copper.

[stinkycheese1]

No, since there is no copper.

 

Exactly. Why then does my 999.9 1 gram gold bar have one then?

My guess because its of the impurities on the gold.

 

Note the spot on the obverse.

 

[MunkyMan95]

Because it's a fake. Duh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stinkycheese1]

Because it's a fake. Duh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think its fake. Was just curious about it because pure gold has no copper in it and therefore how could it have a copper spot? Perhaps it is a carbon spot. Here's a picture I took with my 10x microscope, you can see the reddish lump:

[bsshog40]

It could be just a surface deposit. Gold does not tarnish or corrode.

[pendragon1998]

Maybe someone sneezed on it.

[bsshog40]

I PM'd Kevin this, but others may have some different opinions than my theory.

Gold itself does not corrode, or oxidize, but its primary alloy materials, silver and copper, will do so. When they oxidize they form very dark chemical compounds under moist or wet conditions. This could also be the case but if this looks redish, it could be a small copper deposit that did not mix well and rose to the surface before the gold hardend. I'm not an expert by far on gold Kevin, this is just a guess.

[rrantique]

Maybe it's a speck.

[stinkycheese1]

I PM'd Kevin this, but others may have some different opinions than my theory.

Gold itself does not corrode, or oxidize, but its primary alloy materials, silver and copper, will do so. When they oxidize they form very dark chemical compounds under moist or wet conditions. This could also be the case but if this looks redish, it could be a small copper deposit that did not mix well and rose to the surface before the gold hardend. I'm not an expert by far on gold Kevin, this is just a guess.

 

Thats a good idea, I agree with you.

[zrlevin]

You forgot that this is pure gold. There are no other metals mixed in.

[bsshog40]

See, I told you it was just a theory. Zacks post blew my theory out of the water.

[Oldtrader3]

Even 99.9 pure gold has 1/10 of 1% impurities (0.31 grams). This could (most likely) be part of that copper impurity that didn't alloy and floated to the surface of the molten ingot, because copper is much lighter than gold. I would not be too concerned about it if the ingot is from a reputable source. Copper spots are also very common on 19th century gold coins (and ingots) and have been discussed at length on this site.

 

If you are concerned, buy 99.98% pure gold ingots or 99.99% Maple Leafs. Then you only have 2/100 to 1/100% (0.03 grams) of impurities, or 1/5th to 1/10th the probability of copper spots compared to 99.9% ingots. IMHO, this is splitting hairs, considering most gold older tender coins are 90% gold, have some copper spots and have been the exchange standard worldwide since 15th Century Florins.

 

Relax and try to enjoy what you have.

[Conder101]

Do you know if your bank has humidity control in their vault?

And even if they do, they tend to control it to keep the humidity HIGHER because that is what paper documents need to keep from becoming brittle. But coins need low humidity to prevent corrosion.

 

The solution to this is to create a micro-environment inside your box. Get a Tupperware type box that will fit inside your bank box. Then store your coins and silica gel inside the Tupperware. That way even if it is high humidity in the vault, it will be low humidity inside your box. (And there would be a chance that your coins would survive even if your bank was underwater.)