"Prooflike" 1855 large cent

[NoTwilight]

Mark posted an 1855 proof large cent in another thread and it was quite appreciated. I looked at that coin (photos only) when researching the purchase of the coin below. Several experienced collectors have suggested that this is a mis-attributed proof (it is in an MS65 holder). I've concluded that it is not a proof (but I really like it as an MS coin). The best tell is the 6th star being not fully struck. I haven't seen a proof that doesn't have all stars fully struck. Grellman also points out that in 1855 some MS coins were struck right after the proofs with the same dies and these coins are often hard to tell apart. And if you don't like the carbon spot makeup on her cheek feel free to say so, nobody else has been shy about it. Thanks, Jerry

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Looks like a beauty, thats for sure. I don't mind the carbon spot on her cheek, it is unobtrusive compared to what it could be. Although it is rather large, it is not distracting. Maybe its just the picture, but she appears to have really good luster.

[MarkFeld]

Actually, I've seen a number of Proof Large Cents, including 1855's, without full stars. However, the coin in this thread doesn't look at all like a Proof to me. Either the images don't portray it well or the "experienced collectors" weren't experienced with Proof Large Cents.

[Just Bob]

Is it a 65 because of the color? I don't see a lot of marks.

[MarkFeld]

Is it a 65 because of the color? I don't see a lot of marks.

While it occasionally does, (the brown) color shouldn't really affect the grade, since the grading companies use color designations ("BN", "RB" and "RD") in addition to the numerical grades. From the images, at least, the luster appears to be subdued, and there are stains on Liberty's cheek and the truncation of the bust, as well as some small spots. I'm not picking on the coin, but trying to provide a guess in answer to your question.

[Just Bob]

Thanks for the info, Mark. Do you think that if the spots and stains were removed ( shudder ), it would upgrade?

[MarkFeld]

Thanks for the info, Mark. Do you think that if the spots and stains were removed ( shudder ), it would upgrade?

I'm not sure they could be removed without the coin looking odd, but even if they could, I don't think it would merit an MS66.

[James_OldeTowne]

Certainly from the images, I must say the coin does not appear "prooflike" to me, though it does look nicely struck.

[braddick]

I see a hint of PL fields, stronger on the reverse. Looks like one killer GEM Large cent- a coin anyone should be proud to own.

 

I call the slight carbon on the portrait provenance and a way of marking the coin for future generations to identify!

 

(One 'tell' for me on canceling out any believe it is a possible proof is the reverse rims- just not squared off enough for me...)

[James_OldeTowne]

Braddick, I could be mistaken, but I don't think proofs have squared rims, either.

[braddick]

My error then. I thought they did (or, at minimum, where better struck than mintstate examples...).

 

 

[MarkFeld]

My error then. I thought they did (or, at minimum, where better struck than mintstate examples...).

 

I still think they do Here's an 1855 that Stack's sold and I have seen a number of different date examples in person which I believe have squared rims, as well :

 

Proof 1855 Large Cent

[braddick]

Ahhh... (a little bit of) vindication.

 

[MarkFeld]

Ahhh... (a little bit of) vindication.

Hey, what am I, ("a little bit of") chopped liver?

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

To clarify, I thought Braddick was referring to the outer rim. My apologies!

 

Unfortunately, it appears to me that the photos have the outer edges cropped.

[MarkFeld]

To clarify, I thought Braddick was referring to the outer rim. My apologies!

 

Unfortunately, it appears to me that the photos have the outer edges cropped.

To clarify, I'm guessing he was referring to the outer rim as well. Either way, I disagree with the comment below, as I think they do typically have squared edges.

I could be mistaken, but I don't think proofs have squared rims, either.

[James_OldeTowne]

Mark, I think we'd want to see some un-encapsulated coins, wouldn't we? I think maybe a slab insert prevents us from actually seeing the edge.....

[MarkFeld]

Mark, I think we'd want to see some un-encapsulated coins, wouldn't we? I think maybe a slab insert prevents us from actually seeing the edge.....

James, I think we can at least occasionally see enough in current holders to make that determination. And besides that, I used to see uncertified examples during the good old days, when I went to coin shows during the Crustacean period.

[DJCoinz]

That is a pretty nice looking coin. If it were mine I might try NCS...I remember a while back seeing some B&A pix of and old copper that was sent in as brown with carbon spotting (if I remember correctly) and came back nearly a full red.

[NoTwilight]

I agree with Mark's estimation of the grade. The coin is very mark free but the the spot on the cheek is the main distraction. Luster is better on the reverse than the obv. I think it is very solid for the grade, however.

 

As for prooflike, Here is what I see:

 

1. Very flat and smooth fields and rim face.

2. Very well defined denticles. Often BS large cents including 1855 slanted 55 cents are mushy there.

3. Sharp definition of rim edge and date...

4. Overall look.

 

It is variety N-10 which is the die pair that most proofs were struck from. Grellman has the following to say, "...Early in the mariiage, while the fields are reflective, star 6 becomes weak due to die clogging. Very soon after, while those fields are still nicely reflective, additional clogging (crud on the die) severely weakens star 1...The die was then cleaned and it appears the proof strikes were struck from these freshly cleaned and polished dies (rather than at the beginneing of the marriage). I t is extremely difficult to differentiate between the proof strikes and the business strikes that came immediately after the proofs."

 

This coin has a slightly weak star 6 but a nice star 1. It is likely struck right after the proofs. But posibly struck early in the marriage just as 6 starts to clog. If 6 were strong I'd be wondering if I had a proof.

 

As for the rounded rims, I can't see any evidence of rounded edge in the slab...maybe it is a proof ...:-)

[michael]

no brainer business strike

 

i do not like the so so lustre, weak star and light spot on cheek i aint too crazy about the eye appeal either

 

a common coin i can replace with one mucho better if i really want to seek it out

[MikeInFL]

What a gorgeous coin Jerry.

 

Hammered obverse strike. Wow! What a state of preservation, too. Not a tick or tap anywhere! Obvious distraction of toning spots doesn't bother me given the overall look, I could easily get past it.

 

Reverse denticles appear just a touch rounded particularly near top. Devices seem slightly less sharp than the obverse.

 

Can't judge prooflike appearance from the photos or not, but it does have the appearance of well-used proof dies to my eye. Fields very flat and square against stars and devices. Slight luster in the fields is apparent from the photos.

 

I'd grade the surfaces and strike 66+ quality. The discoloration is the only major distraction, and I'd wager if that wasn't there it would grade 66 (or higher).

 

Although my personal preference is RB late date cents, I'd have no problem spending 65 brown money for that coin and would be proud to own it. Thanks for sharing...Mike

[NoTwilight]

no brainer business strike

 

i do not like the so so lustre, weak star and light spot on cheek i aint too crazy about the eye appeal either

 

a common coin i can replace with one mucho better if i really want to seek it out

 

Michael, Although PCGS has only grade 5 of the slanted 55 in 65BN and 1 higher, they have graded several hundred large cents in the 1850s in 65 with many higher. And NGC has graded many similarly. Indeed, these coins aren't rare or even scarce. I can't really afford a coin that isn't readily available. But I'd love to see your better large cents. thanks, Jerry

[NoTwilight]

What a gorgeous coin Jerry....

 

Although my personal preference is RB late date cents, I'd have no problem spending 65 brown money for that coin and would be proud to own it. Thanks for sharing...Mike

 

Thanks Mike. I know you like the RB but I'm a fan of a nicely colored BN large cent. I appreciate the encouragement from one as knowledgeable and experienced as you. The spot on her cheek shows up much more with the high contrast of the photograph. It's in a fairly new blue label holder and it would be my guess that it has been cracked out and sent in hoping for an upgrade without success...I'm happy with it in the 65 holder and bought it priced that way.

 

But it's rotated and tapping doesn't seem to help and it has that flaw in the plastic over the rim so I'll probably have it reholdered eventually.

 

Thanks,

Jerry