Question on 20 francs gold "lucky angels" *UPDATED WITH EDGE PIC

[stinkycheese1]

Hi everyone, I purchased my first gold coin since awhile now. I used to have another one but I sold it to buy my saint gaudens. It looks about AU to uncirculated.

 

I have a gold 20 francs lucky angel, I think these are just worth about bullion, if not a little more they were minted (1871-1898)

 

I'm not worried about it being counterfeit but a question crossed my mind. Were these coins heavily counterfeited like US gold coins? Or not? It doesn't seem to be they would be, since they seem to be worth about bullion value and do not have too much numismatic premium. Do I need to worry about having it certified?

 

I paid about $170 for it. Here's a picture of it, sorry its a bit blurry, best I could do for now.

 

 

Thanks for the help since I don't know much about foreign coins

 

PS: Please don't flame me for making this thread. I know some people might be annoyed by me thinking about counterfeits, but I'm not worried this coin is; I just want some opinion on if they are just bullion or not and if they were heavily counterfeited. Thanks

 

I managed to take a picture of the edge of the coin (Lucky me) on some of the more well defined letters. Also, I noticed, some of the stars on the edge of the coin appear to be cut off. Like only 3/4 of the star is shown.

Take a look

 

 

Here's another image. (Best Icould get sorry). It's of one of the stars that is cut off. The star is about 1/4 cut off. Is this normal?

 

 

[stinkycheese1]

Oh yeah, also if anyone cares to know they offered me $1100 for my MS64 saint. I didn't sell it..

[Oldtrader3]

Most counterfeits are 22 carat gold of correct weight and therefore are coins with a premium (i.e. U.S. Eagle, half eagle etc.) because it does not make sense otherwise. These coins have almost no collector premium and would not IMHO be candidates for counterfeiters.

[WinstonWare]

Did you post this in the world coins forum? There maybe someone there who know…

[stinkycheese1]

Most counterfeits are 22 carat gold of correct weight and therefore are coins with a premium (i.e. U.S. Eagle, half eagle etc.) because it does not make sense otherwise. These coins have almost no collector premium and would not IMHO be candidates for counterfeiters.

 

thanks!

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I may very well be wrong, but I believe these gold coins actually trade at a small discount on the wholesale market because, despite the aggressive promotion by certain retailers, they are not that popular. And because of this. I'd surmise that they are unlikely to be counterfeited much.

 

I definitely defer to someone with more expertise, however.

[stinkycheese1]

I may very well be wrong, but I believe these gold coins actually trade at a small discount on the wholesale market because, despite the aggressive promotion by certain retailers, they are not that popular. And because of this. I'd surmise that they are unlikely to be counterfeited much.

 

I definitely defer to someone with more expertise, however.

 

Hi James. Thanks for your reply. I posted this in the world and ancient coin section as well, hopefully someone there with more expertise can answer my question. I've been wanting one of these for awhile. glad I purchased it.

 

[DaveG]

Lonesome John, in his book "Detecting Counterfeit Gold Coins", doesn't have any counterfeit Angels illustrated, so I infer that Angels are considerably less likely to have been counterfeited than Sovereigns and Roosters.

 

Back in the 50s and 60s, when counterfeits were coming out of Lebanon, etc., just about any gold coin traded at a premium to gold bullion. However, the most profitable coins to counterfeit were US (three dollars, quarter eagles, etc.), while Sovereigns were very popular throughout Europe and the Roosters were popular in Asia (due to the Year of the Rooster, I understand).

 

Look at the edge of your coin - the edge lettering should be well defined.

[stinkycheese1]

Lonesome John, in his book "Detecting Counterfeit Gold Coins", doesn't have any counterfeit Angels illustrated, so I infer that Angels are considerably less likely to have been counterfeited than Sovereigns and Roosters.

 

Back in the 50s and 60s, when counterfeits were coming out of Lebanon, etc., just about any gold coin traded at a premium to gold bullion. However, the most profitable coins to counterfeit were US (three dollars, quarter eagles, etc.), while Sovereigns were very popular throughout Europe and the Roosters were popular in Asia (due to the Year of the Rooster, I understand).

 

Look at the edge of your coin - the edge lettering should be well defined.

 

 

The edge lettering looks well defined on most points but some of the letters look worn. Some of the edge lettering appears either worn or has blobs in the lettering.

[stinkycheese1]

:;sigh:: if this coin turns out to be fake I'm going to be really upset. I do have the receipt so I guess I could return it but I'm not an expert on counterfeit detection and I do not know if its fake. I suppose the letters could look the way they are because of wear or some other factors. I honesty doubt the coin is fake, something inside me tells me it's not. And if it is fake I only paid $10 over melt so I could always sell it for its gold value. I'd lose $10 but they had to make money off it somehow.

 

[GDJMSP]

Either your picture is creating a very weird effect or that coin has the nicest double strike I've ever seen on one. I see, nothing to make me think the coin is counterfeit. Though there are some that exist.

[stinkycheese1]

Either your picture is creating a very weird effect or that coin has the nicest double strike I've ever seen on one. I see, nothing to make me think the coin is counterfeit. Though there are some that exist.

 

I think i bought it from a pretty reputable place. I do not want to worry bout it and I do not want to sell it but do you think the edge is anything to worry about?

[Mozin]

I like the French Angel design. Eight years ago I bought a number of them, all NGC MS graded. They are part of my bullion holdings. The NGC holdered Angels bring a bit more money than the raw ones, about the cost of bulk slabbing difference.

 

[stinkycheese1]

I like the French Angel design. Eight years ago I bought a number of them, all NGC MS graded. They are part of my bullion holdings. The NGC holdered Angels bring a bit more money than the raw ones, about the cost of bulk slabbing difference.

 

Classic design, regarded as many as a good luck charm, old classic gold, can't beat that for close to melt value!

[michael]

your coin is 100% genuine original mint product

 

usually not counterfeited as they are extremely unpopular

 

now because of the demand for anything gold bullion related i think small coin shops if they needed to buy bullion as they have much walk in traffic you might get offered melt value if in hand sight seen the coin is a nice commercial, unc. or better with good eye appeal and no problems

 

then melt and i am sure you could get melt value plus 5% if you really wanted to if the coin was unc and eye appealling

 

today

 

tomorrow might be a different story

 

a great thread and question and i learned something by this thread question and the responses

 

(thumbs u

 

 

[rons]

Stinky, I bought one of the angels for my wife because she is the angel in my life. I thought she might become interested in my coins but it didn't happen so...... Who knows, when you meet that special someone, what a great gift for her:) How many times have you purchased counterfeit gold that makes you so paranoid? If you aren't sure then don't buy or else you will wind up giving yourself an ulcer. Life is good so relax and enjoy it

[MikeKing]

isn't it amazing how a 19th century coin with such an absolutely beautiful design, could be gotten so cheaply? I had about 20 of them I bought years ago as a bullion holding and sold them sometime thereafter. I wish I had kept them. The only one I've got now, is bezeled to a pocket watch chain. I think I might just go back and purchase some more.

[stinkycheese1]

Stinky, I bought one of the angels for my wife because she is the angel in my life. I thought she might become interested in my coins but it didn't happen so...... Who knows, when you meet that special someone, what a great gift for her:) How many times have you purchased counterfeit gold that makes you so paranoid? If you aren't sure then don't buy or else you will wind up giving yourself an ulcer. Life is good so relax and enjoy it

 

Yes, you're right. i need to worry less. It seems like almost any gold coin I buy I find a problem with. I should've asked more questions to the dealer about the coin before I bought it. It's just the letters on the edge look worn.

 

Thanks michael for telling me its good.

 

I guess I'll have it looked at the ANA national money show.

 

[stinkycheese1]

I just talked to one of the senior numismatics at coin gallery where I bought the coin. I told him some of the letters appear worn on the edge of the coin, and he said thats normal. He told me they look at lots of coins and can spot counterfeits. I asked him if I could bring it him and have him check it, and he said there's no need to because its real. I asked him can I bring it in if I go to the national money show ANA is holding and if they find it fake and again he said there's no need to because its geniune.

 

He said to save myself a trip. Here is their website: Coin Gallery

 

To me, this brings up red flags because if the dealer won't even bother to look at it to see if its fake or not, that just doesn't seem right. A dealer should buy back counterfeit coins! I talked to a lady before him and she said I could bring it in.

 

It has eased my mind a little but also makes me wonder why they won't even check it..

[stinkycheese1]

Hi everyone. I managed to take a picture of the edge of the coin (Lucky me) on some of the more well defined letters.

Take a look

[stinkycheese1]

Also, I noticed, some of the stars on the edge of the coin appear to be cut off. Like only 3/4 of the star is shown.

 

Here's a picture of some of the letters that appear to be worn. Sorry the picture is a bit blurry.

 

 

Here's another image. (Best Icould get sorry). It's of one of the stars that is cut off. The star is about 1/4 cut off. Is this normal?

 

[MikeKing]

I suspect that what you show about the star being 'cut off' does not have to be a real concern. I don't know how they edged them, but the edge doesn't look uneven, so perhaps whatever they used to make the edges was just a little off on the planchet. Edge lettering was used in Bust halves in order to prevent shaving off of the edge of the coin. I would think if your coin was shaved, a lot more would be removed. As for it's legitimacy, I think you'd have to submit it for holdering at NGC or PCGS, or find a friendly gold dealer at the next show.

 

I checked out the site you referenced, and in bold letters they say "Collector friendly". They are not living up to this if they don't welcome a visit from you with your concerns.

 

edited to add: perhaps if you find out how much a coin like this should weigh, then you can weigh it and see.

 

 

[stinkycheese1]

I suspect that what you show about the star being 'cut off' does not have to be a real concern. I don't know how they edged them, but the edge doesn't look uneven, so perhaps whatever they used to make the edges was just a little off on the planchet. Edge lettering was used in Bust halves in order to prevent shaving off of the edge of the coin. I would think if your coin was shaved, a lot more would be removed. As for it's legitimacy, I think you'd have to submit it for holdering at NGC or PCGS, or find a friendly gold dealer at the next show.

 

I checked out the site you referenced, and in bold letters they say "Collector friendly". They are not living up to this if they don't welcome a visit from you with your concerns.

 

edited to add: perhaps if you find out how much a coin like this should weigh, then you can weigh it and see.

 

 

In the phone call they just told me it was geniune and there was no need for me to go to the store again and have them check it. Since this coin is worth about bullion, is it even worth it to submit it?

 

[TomB]

If you purchased the coin in person and they have already told you that they go through all their gold coins to look for counterfeits then it may very well be that they believe they are doing you a favor by telling you not to come to the shop again since all they will do is to look at the coin and again tell you it is real. Essentially, they are telling you to save your time regarding another visit.

 

In the future, I think it might be very wise if you would limit your purchases to items purchased by you directly from the US Mint or other world mints.

[WinstonWare]

In the future, I think it might be very wise if you would limit your purchases to items purchased by you directly from the US Mint or other world mints.

This is a good point that Tom makes but you’d still have to watch the mailman and make sure he didn’t swap out your order with a fake gold coin.

[MAULEMALL]

In the future, I think it might be very wise if you would limit your purchases to items purchased by you directly from the US Mint or other world mints.

This is a good point that Tom makes but you’d still have to watch the mailman and make sure he didn’t swap out your order with a fake gold coin.

The Mailman,,,,,,,,

[MikeKing]

I suspect that what you show about the star being 'cut off' does not have to be a real concern. I don't know how they edged them, but the edge doesn't look uneven, so perhaps whatever they used to make the edges was just a little off on the planchet. Edge lettering was used in Bust halves in order to prevent shaving off of the edge of the coin. I would think if your coin was shaved, a lot more would be removed. As for it's legitimacy, I think you'd have to submit it for holdering at NGC or PCGS, or find a friendly gold dealer at the next show.

 

I checked out the site you referenced, and in bold letters they say "Collector friendly". They are not living up to this if they don't welcome a visit from you with your concerns.

 

edited to add: perhaps if you find out how much a coin like this should weigh, then you can weigh it and see.

 

 

In the phone call they just told me it was geniune and there was no need for me to go to the store again and have them check it. Since this coin is worth about bullion, is it even worth it to submit it?

 

I would just accept it as genuine the way it is.

Perhaps Tom has a good point though. If you want gold bullion, in the future, go US mint, Canadian mint, etc...

 

 

[stinkycheese1]

I suspect that what you show about the star being 'cut off' does not have to be a real concern. I don't know how they edged them, but the edge doesn't look uneven, so perhaps whatever they used to make the edges was just a little off on the planchet. Edge lettering was used in Bust halves in order to prevent shaving off of the edge of the coin. I would think if your coin was shaved, a lot more would be removed. As for it's legitimacy, I think you'd have to submit it for holdering at NGC or PCGS, or find a friendly gold dealer at the next show.

 

I checked out the site you referenced, and in bold letters they say "Collector friendly". They are not living up to this if they don't welcome a visit from you with your concerns.

 

edited to add: perhaps if you find out how much a coin like this should weigh, then you can weigh it and see.

 

 

In the phone call they just told me it was geniune and there was no need for me to go to the store again and have them check it. Since this coin is worth about bullion, is it even worth it to submit it?

 

I would just accept it as genuine the way it is.

Perhaps Tom has a good point though. If you want gold bullion, in the future, go US mint, Canadian mint, etc...

 

 

I wanted an older coin from the 1800's that has a nice story to it.

That's why it appealed to me, classic coinage with a great history and story for about bullion.

[stinkycheese1]

In the future, I think it might be very wise if you would limit your purchases to items purchased by you directly from the US Mint or other world mints.

This is a good point that Tom makes but you’d still have to watch the mailman and make sure he didn’t swap out your order with a fake gold coin.

 

 

Guys, I'm sorry for obessing about this issue so much, I really am. I hope I didn't frusterate or annoy any of you.

[WinstonWare]

In the future, I think it might be very wise if you would limit your purchases to items purchased by you directly from the US Mint or other world mints.

This is a good point that Tom makes but you’d still have to watch the mailman and make sure he didn’t swap out your order with a fake gold coin.

 

 

Guys, I'm sorry for obessing about this issue so much, I really am. I hope I didn't frusterate or annoy any of you.

 

No no. I’m just playing with you. I’m glad to see that you’re taking my joke well (thumbs u