And upgrade to my Washington Liberty and Security Penny

[MikeKing]

I posted one before, a fire gilt one that was heavily toned over and AU53. Another one came up for auction, recently, in a BM auction, with an incredible strike, and very nice color, but I was unable to afford bidding on it. Lo and behold, I later found it on Harry Laibstain's site and was able to trade in some coins to obtain this one, and have the earlier one I posted, put up for auction thru Stacks.

 

For those interested, I'll give a brief history, and therefore quite incomplete, on the Liberty and Security penny, that I had in my prior post.

 

***

 

I believe they were minted in Birmingham by a company hoping for a coinage contract with the US, which was entirely unlikely for both; the reasons that a US Mint had already been established, and that President Washington did not want his image used in this fashion (too Monarchial sp?). This penny is undated, but was supposedly minted at least before 1795. I also believe they may have been used as money in the States.

 

Breen mentions that the US Mint was having 'trouble' in 1795, and this contributed to the British firm, believing that they could get a contract for US coinage.

 

I'm not familiar enough with Britsh coinage, but from a quick look up on the internet, it looks like in 1797 Matthew Boulton was authorized by the government to make copper pennies, 36 mm diameter, 28.3 grams, which is even bigger and heavier than this Washington token/penny. The reason I looked this up is because the Liberty Cap Cent manufactured by the U.S. Mint was smaller and lighter (see below) than this Washington 'penny', and I thought this could be argument against a British company making them this size as potential currency in the US. I think, based on the weight and size of the 1795 British penny, that this argument goes out the window.

 

The Washington Liberty and Security 'Penny' was designed by the diecutter Thomas Wyon and minted by Peter Kempson and Son of Birmingham.

 

For size comparison:

I think it's around 33 mm diameter and about 300+ grains (19.44 grams)in weight. Maybe somewhere in between the size of a large penny and a Morgan Dollar.

So it weighed more and was larger than a penny.

 

Liberty Cap Cents 28 millimeters; 208 grains == 13.5 grams,

reduced to 168 grains == 10.9 grams at the end of 1795

 

Classic Head Large Cent 28-29 mm; 168 grains == 10.89 grams

 

1836 Seated Liberty Dollar 39 mm; 416 grains == 27.0 grams

1840 Seated Liberty Dollar 38 mm; 412.5 grains == 26.73 grams

 

Morgan 38.1 mm; 26.73 grams

 

100 grains = 6.4799 grams

300 grains = 19.44 grams

 

This particular coin, as I mentioned, has a great strike for this issue, nice hard mahogany surfaces, and underneath all the dirt, a highly reflective copper background that I'm very tempted to unleash by having the dirt brushed off of this coin.

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Is the pictured coin the new one you just got, or the old one you are auctioning? Either way, it is gorgeous. Very informative post, too - I'd never heard of this issue.

[MikeKing]

Hi, no, the coin pictured is the new one.

[Conder101]

I'm not familiar enough with British coinage, but from a quick look up on the internet, it looks like in 1797 Matthew Boulton was authorized by the government to make copper pennies, 36 mm diameter, 28.3 grams, which is even bigger and heavier than this Washington token/penny. The reason I looked this up is because the Liberty Cap Cent manufactured by the U.S. Mint was smaller and lighter (see below) than this Washington 'penny', and I thought this could be argument against a British company making them this size as potential currency in the US. I think, based on the weight and size of the 1795 British penny, that this argument goes out the window.

Something you have to remember is that the British penny and the US "penny" are not the same. The US cent was only roughly the value of the British halfpenny, not the penny. (Contrary to popular belief the nickname "penny" for the US cent was NOT based on the British penny. The British penny was worth twice as much and had not even existed for over a hundred years at the time the US cent was authorized. And even when it had existed it was a small silver coin, no a copper one. The source of the nickname was actually the New York "penny" which was a financial "money of account" used in the State of New York. Being he financial heart of the colonies the New York money of account was also widely used, or at least understood, in the other colonies as well. Under the New York system the New York penny was valued at 90 to the Spanish milled dollar. the US cent was valued at 100 to the dollar, a much closer figure than the British 46 pence to the dollar.)

 

Also the original specifications for the US cent was for a copper coin weighing 254 grains, not that much smaller than the later British penny of 1797. The reason the size was reduced to 208 grains before the mint act was passed was because the 254 grain con would be unwieldy and also because copper prices were rising. That is also why the weight of the cent was reduced again at the end of 1795 to 168 grains. If Boulton had struck a halfpenny in 1797 it would have weighed around 150 grains.

[michael]

superb mikeking

[rrantique]

Great looking penny Mike K (thumbs u