Happy Holidays: Blood Bath at ANACS

[DC Dawg]

I'm not a lawyer , but am I wrong to guess that for a comapny to lock down all it's previous contracts for stuff like health care and retirements , they would have to dissolve or something....then to re-organize and come back under the same name with different operational supplements and employee stuff , they could basically re-hire all the former emplyees and start all over again , but more streamlined with out all the old agreements that were passed down everytime the company was sold before?

It depends on the labor laws of the state--and I don't know the laws of Texas. A right to work state would probably have to file bankruptcy under Chapter 11 to reorganize and get permission of the courts to break contracts. A non-right to work state could hire and fire at will, even for no reason.

 

As for the benefits, the contracts are usually written in a way that allows for the dropping of individuals from benefits without fee. This way, a company can layoff a group of people and drop the benefits at a minimal cost. HOWEVER, the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA) of 1985 and the Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) of 1974 places requirements on the employer to protect carry over benefits to the employee. It protects the retirement plans, residual life or other insurance, and allows the employee to purchase health insurance at the full price (the employee plus the employer's price).

 

If ANACS terminated their contracts (e.g., it runs out at the end of December and the new contract was not in effect), then the benefits end in December and ANACS has no further obligations. If ANACS files for bankruptcy protection, they can petition the court to drop coverages. Courts are reticent to do this without some plan to give the former employees options.

 

COBRA and ERISA are very tricky. Wording on both laws can be interpreted in a number of ways, and the courts hate to intervene. Most judges send cases to arbitration before ruling on it.

 

If this story is true, I feel for the employees of ANACS, especially the ones who were moved to Austin to maintain their job. I am not saying there is anything wrong with Austin, but if you're not from the area, you have the feeling of being betrayed and out of place. I understand... I went through something similar 20 years ago. I wish them luck!!

 

Scott

[CHABSENTIA]

It depends on the Legal laws in the State. There are Local Laws and there are Federal Laws that govern such things. While the Local Laws or absence of them would affect some things there would be no getting around or ignoring the Federal Laws such as Cobra for the Medical which allows for a cerain time period of reduced Medical Premiums .I believe that cost to be more than the old cost but less than what a private person would pay for comparable insurance.

 

At any rate , this is moot since when the time period is up the reduced cost is gone and if one doesn't have a job they might not be able to pay it anyway.

 

 

 

It would most likely be one of the scenarios I listed. Something does not seem right to me as I sent a package to ANACS last week with a delivery confirmation and I checked the UPS website and the package was accepted by the ANACS address on the 24th.

[gmarguli]

COBRA allows an employee the right to continue their group medical insurance (and dental/vision in some cases) for 18 months after the loss of coverage. It is not at a reduced cost, thought it may seem that way to many people. Since an employee electing COBRA will be paying the group rate which is usually lower than any individual rate they could get, it frequently looks like they are getting a reduced rate.

 

COBRA only comes into play when there are 20+ employees in the company. However, there may be similar programs available for those companies with less than 20 employees and it can vary by state. How many employees did ANACS have?

 

Now the bad part for the ANACS employees, since everyone was fired, the group insurance was almost definitely canceled. Since there is no more group coverage, COBRA doesn't come into play. The workers do not have the right to continue their medical coverage. COBRA allows you the right to continue insurance as if you were still part of the group. Since there is no more group, you have no more rights, and you're screwed.

[CHABSENTIA]

I am not too sure of the 18 month limit. I don't remember the conditions but my Son was offered COBRA some time back. This was before Congress passed a law allowing people Portabilty with their Medical and also eliminating the clause against being denied because of Previous problems.

 

My Son -in Law quit his job last year when a New Company bought his old one. He was out for about 9 months and bought Houses etc and fixed them up.After every thing was set up in this area he reapplied with the same new Company in a different capacity and just had to wait 90 days. I don't know if he was offered Cobra or not.

 

I do remember when my Son was offered it that it seemed pretty expensive but was not as much as non- group but more than group.. At any rate, he was going to College and the College Insurance was a lot cheaper which it would be because it was Group.

 

 

I thought the College was alright because he was Young and he didn't ever have to use it but it was there.

 

I just don't remember the Cobra being offered for 18 months. Possibly it was 6 month increments with with analysis after each six months for a total of 18. Just can't remember as this was 12-15 years ago.

[gmarguli]

I work in the insurance industry for a living. I'm positive it is 18 months with an additional 18 months possible under certain circumstances.

[construct]

It depends on the labor laws of the state--and I don't know the laws of Texas. A right to work state would probably have to file bankruptcy under Chapter 11 to reorganize and get permission of the courts to break contracts. A non-right to work state could hire and fire at will, even for no reason.

 

This is backwards.

 

Texas is a right to work state where an employer may fire an employee without notice for any reason or for no reason (as long as it's not a "bad" reason like discrimination against a statutorily named category). Employment contracts may modify this, but most employees in Texas do not work under a contract. We often derisively call this "employment at whim."

 

Did ANACS employees work under a contract?

[just-john]

I can NOT see graders having contracts to work my guess they are hourly employees no more no less and would be surprised if they had medical insurance provided by ANACS.

The ANA is in Colorado to I think. Do they provide Health insurance to all their employees??

 

[gmarguli]

ANACS is a TPG and needs highly qualified graders. They are in great demand. They would most certainly provide health benefits as well as other benefits if they wanted to attract quality graders.

[TheMightyDuke]

With all the talk of ANACS possibly having their supporters lose faith, would it be safe to think prices for their product would decrease? This is not to say their grade opinion would be questioned, but with less faith in the company itself, thats a bad taste left. As such, do you think NGC graded coins could see a bit more of a tighter spread vs the same coin in a PCGS slab? Just something that ran through my mind thinking about JT....his last few ventures havent been home runs, and we all know what the consensus is with ICG....any feedback with this?

 

 

 

edited to add: this is all hypothetical....just going by what ICG coins bring, and JT had a hand in the birth of THAT baby.

[Conder101]

oh...and look what I found!!! (from heritage archives 2002)

That is actually an error slab. That is a bodybag which got slabbed by mistake. It doesn't happen often but there are some of them out there. Another well known example is the 50% off-center 1854 large cent that has had the word CENT on the back altered. The serial number contains a bodybag code but it was put into a slab by mistake.

[cmerlo1-migration]

I posted this the day it happened on the CU forums...I live in Austin and had friends that worked there. I received a call from one of them, who told me what happened. Apparently, the office was partially cleaned out when they got to work Dec. 26. They were called into a meeting and told that the company had been sold, and they were terminated. They also wouldn't be getting paid for the Christmas holidays, because Whitman sold the company on the 21st and it wasn't their problem...

 

I paid them a visit the next day to find the office cleaned out and a sign on the door stating that they were closed fo the holidays and would re-open on Jan. 8...I have about $500 worth of coins with them now, and was concerned as to what was going on with them. I finally got the email stating they were being moved to Colorado.

 

I'm disappointed with the way this all went down- I think it could've been handled better by both parties, and would've appreciated information that day as to the status of my coins...I will probably not be using them for VAMs and other varieties in the future as a result...

 

It is my understanding that only a few people were offered jobs at the ANACS in Colorado. The rest of the positions there have been filled by employees from ICG. I don't know what this means for ICG now, so this will be interesting.

 

--Christian

[Just Bob]

Glad to see you posting, Christian. I thought you might have left us.

And thanks for the first-hand information.

[Coin]

Here's the only info I have gotten from them , in an email to customers :

 

ANACS has recently been sold by Anderson Press Incorporated to Driving Force, LLC, of Colorado, owned by James Taylor. The purchase was effective December 21, 2007 and the company is being relocated to suburban Denver, Colorado.

 

The office is currently closed for the holidays to allow time for the move.

 

Customers that had submissions at the Austin location please rest assured that they are being handled in the safest and most professional of manners as they are transported by armored service to the new office.

 

Business will resume and submissions will begin to ship out January 2, 2008. If there are any questions please don't hesitate to contact Mr. Taylor at: James.Taylor@ANACS.com

 

The new ANACS office will be located at:

 

6555 S. Kenton St, Suite 303

Englewood, CO 80112

1-800-888-1861

www.ANACS.com

 

 

I'm under an impression from some of the comments that there could be liable circumstances involving some kind of institutional knowledge domain stuff like grading to a certain copyrighted business standard of a specific company.....some type of intellectual rights I think ....which was what I was attempting to question out as to how a company can fold its doors and release its fomer employees and dissolve this condition and get out from under any old employment conditions , and agreements as well as any healthcare or retirement contracts passed down from one owner to another , to be inclusive .

I live in SC and it's one of the "right-to-work" states where you could be fired at any time for no reason or any reason as long as it does not violate some other contractual agreement or Federal/State labor laws like EOE ( equal opportunity .....race,religion , creed , discrimination , etc) .

My current employment is a under a Union Contract , so , In my case , I have Arbitration rights and other contractual (limited) protections , but I have not ever heard of any "Graders Unions " in the coin Industry .

Is it time for " Employees Unite?" and the formation of a Federal Graders Union? Whether the Owners like it or not ? I mean , I do not know all the facts here other than what is posted , but these are PEOPLE -with FAMILIES ....and whether they each practiced whatever religion....I mean geezz...this was done to them right before a major designated somewhat religious Holiday , In America , By Golly .

Unless the owners can disclose some really interesting reasons for doing this at that time , I'm not sure there is any way this is going to look good for anybody.

 

[cmerlo1-migration]

Glad to see you posting, Christian. I thought you might have left us.

And thanks for the first-hand information.

 

Apologies for coming in so late with the info...I'm still learning what's OK to post here (it's a different world at CU, it seems) and didn't want to offend our hosts or anyone else. I plan on posting a lot more!

[CHABSENTIA]

Don't know the situation in Texas as there is not enough info. I do know that there have been Companies here in Florida that have relocated..There was News that they offered the employees a chance to stay with the Company new or otherwise if they relocated. If they didn't want to relocate then there was nothing they could do.

 

My son-law used to be a truck driver here for a Company that had the account for Burger King. He was paid really good. Hiis route was to drive from Jacksonville Florida to South Carolina.ICC rules state that you can only be driving a certain amount of time before you have to rest. There are probably some who do not adhere to it.

 

This was not a problem in his case as the Company provided another Driver so they could spell each other.

 

About a year ago the Company was bought by another Company and the new company put in new rules such as the elimination of the second driver and told them that they would have to stay in a Motel. They also lowered salaries a little.

 

He decided to quit as he did not want to be absent from his Family a longer period of time.In his case the guy can build anything. He built a large garage pretty much by himself . He told me that putting in the rafters was the only part that you needed other people except for arranging for a Cement truck etc.

 

He started buying run-down houses. The situation here is that renovations in this area is Labor intensive whuch didn't affect him as he can Lay tile etc. He buys Houses where he can et $750.00 rent and his Mortage payments are no more than $450.00 a month.This leaves him $300.00 a month for himself All he has to worry about is Materials and his time. He says that people are standing in line to rent and he is gettting phone calls all the time for them.

 

He went back to work for the new company a month ago.but in the Warehouse. as he said that the houses need very little maintenance and he now has 10 of them.He works in the Early Morning until the early afternoon and any attentionto them he does on his day off or on the weekend.He is hoem with his Family every night.

 

He had bulit up a 401K with the other company of 100K.He is 39 years old so he can't touch it for another 20 years without paying a Penalty but he has it fo fall back on.

 

I realize that this won''t work for everybody and many people don't have the talents for certain things but the 100K does demonstrate what can be done if one is disciplined and works for a Company with good benefits and is responsible. and they don't necessarily need a big position etc.

 

The other end is that nothing is guaranteed except for Death and Taxes.There are various levels of Protection for workers depending on their State and Contracts as well as their abillity to be flexible.

 

I can remember many years ago when the Steel Industry was in trouble. Many people were laid off. They had good benefits and when the various Unemployment compensations ran out many refused to work for wages of say $6.00 as hour as it was beneath them since they were used to making almost three times that figure.

 

 

When Reagan fired the Air Controllers they had warning and many gave up good Salaries and even their Unions told them abd they refused to listen. I was going back to College at the time and there was a guy in one of my classes. Him and his wife both had been ATCs so they had a good combined Salary and they threw it away.He was going into another career.

 

 

It is sad especially during the Hoildays but nobody really has all the information . The one poster here tells of a Grader who returned after Vacation adnthey were cleaning out the offfices etc.He also said that he was told it was "his decision" which implies an offer of some sort but it is not mentioned.

 

Maybe they all got an offer to relocate and maybe only some got an offer. Maybe they were told that if they did relocate that their moving expenses would be paid. We don't have the information.

 

My brother transferred to another Utiilty Company but many years ago he was an Engineer of CPL a large Utility Company with operations in both Texas and Oklahoma. He was transferred from Texas to Oklahoma. He had to get a home in Oklahoma. CPL had a situation that if you were transferred they would purcahse your home.. My Father bought his home as he said that their Price was too low so he purchased it at Fair Market Valu and took his time in reselling it.

 

A Friend of my Sons came back to live with his Parents across the street. He works for United Parcel Service. I had never heard of this until now but although he is a Part time Worker he has Medical Benefits, He had an accident which required an operationon his leg.Fortunately it was not immediate and his Parents paid for what was necessary at the time. He got a job in the office and waited 90 days and then got the operation.

 

There are many different levels of Emploment and Benefits and not every body can have them but we don't have the full info here.

[TheMightyDuke]

Well, as posted ATS, JP Martin is now along for the ANACS ride. I DVR TV coin shows (no, not to buy, just to see how far these guys go). Sure enough, JP Martin is right alongside Mike Mezak (wonder if Mezak now has something to do with ANACS??). Should all the negative comments, thoughts, etc, come to fruition, is this REALLY enough to sink ANACS?

[gmarguli]

Having just read that thread, it is very clear how so many people really do not understand how the TPG work. They're outright clueless and making stupid statements that if they'd even try to think thru what they are saying, they'd realize how stupid it is.

 

James Taylor and ANACS hit a home run with the TV sales, but they're talking like it's a strike out.

[CHABSENTIA]

As I mentioned in the earlier post we still do not have enough information to make a definite decision. Even the one where the Poster gave a copy of the E Mail in which a Senior Grader gave a description of what happened on his return from vacation there aren't many facts as to what and why it happened.

 

In fact, this Senior Grade makes a statement that the person in charge told him " that he didn't have to make a decision now etc........."

 

Decision as to what? Doesn't make any specifics about the conversation they had or what he was referring to. I merely gave examples of moves that happened in my experiences and how people reacted.

 

We don't know for sure under what conditions this move was made and what the employees were offered or what they were not offered.

[just-john]

how many days- weeks or months before the talking heads on TV start the hype from NGC and PCGS TO--ANACS stands ready to reclaim its rightful position of preeminence as America’s oldest grading service.

[CHABSENTIA]

I am still wondering about the latest print edition of Coin world. The Front cover has the word advertisement on it and the whole cover is an ad for ICG. The inside of the cover is also ICG and is full page and has the coupon for submitting coins.

 

There have been a few articles in Coin World including the one about the Woman in Colorado who eventually went to ICG ther in Colorado where they readily identified it.

 

 

There may have been other instances where a Coin Publication instead of using its front cover to headline articles inside the pages used the front cover to advertise a Service. I have not heard of any or any other type Magazine using the practice but nobody has commented on it especially with the apparent association here on this Forum with ANACS and ICG.

[gmarguli]

It's an ad. They don't purchase the actual cover, but a wraparound.

[wayneherndon]

It's an ad. They don't purchase the actual cover, but a wraparound.

 

Exactly. ICG does this several times a year. Maybe as often as once a month. I've not seen one yet on the new, smaller size Coin World but I saw them regularly on the old, larger size issues.

 

WH

[James_OldeTowne]

It's an ad. They don't purchase the actual cover, but a wraparound.

Those wraparounds go straight from my mailbox to the trash can at my house. I can't stand them.

[stev32k]

All I can say is I won't be sending any coins to ANACS until I see how all this works out. I'd hate to send in a batch of coins only to find out the office is being moved to boon docks where ever and we don't have any coin graders anymore, but don't worry your coins will be well taken care of . Yeah right.

 

Just glad I only sent one coin to them. Wonder if I'll ever see it again?

[CHABSENTIA]

I started another Topic as I noticed it when I was watching T.V. last night. ANACS has a new type holder that is colr coded.

 

As for the wrap around I appreciate the input. Just never noticed one before.

[rrantique]

I started another Topic as I noticed it when I was watching T.V. last night. ANACS has a new type holder that is colr coded.

 

As for the wrap around I appreciate the input. Just never noticed one before.

I also noticed that JP Martin was there and they mention Michael Fahey as some of the finalizer graders of the ANACS coins. Thought these guys worked for ICG. I smell a deal.

 

 

[gmarguli]

We're going to see some major lawsuits involving some prominent people flying back and forth. Trust me, it's going to get very ugly.

 

From the ICG web site:

 

Happy New Year and Welcome to the ICG Family.

 

As many of you are aware ICG has recently endured unfortunate upheaval. We fully intend to avail ourselves of the protections afforded us under the law and believe that in the end justice will prevail.

 

Taking recent events into consideration we want to look to the future and preserve ICG’s reputation as one of the top independent coin grading companies.

 

Recent events have afforded the owners the opportunity to hire some of the industry’s most experienced and respected graders and support staff so that the task of advancing ICG’s mission to provide the highest quality product, the most effective and pleasant customer service, the quickest product turn around and the most cost effective grading service in the industry will continue.

 

If it sounds like we have been listening to your comments…… we have! ICG intends to immediately and effectively respond to industry demands to make ICG more responsive than ever.

 

This is our promise to you.

Sincerely,

Roger Edelman, CEO

Independent Coin Grading Service (ICG)

 

JP Martin & Michael Fahey are gone from their web site. However, Walt Armitage, Larry Wilson, Cameron Kiefer, & Sue Berg are still listed as being there. I wonder if they didn't have time to do more deleting of employees? Maybe they're still there? :yeahok:

 

It looks like ICG hired a bunch of ANACS employees.

[CHABSENTIA]

I recorded the program I told everybody about regarding the new Labels and new holders for ANACS and watched some this morning.

 

I had mentioned earlier that the First day issue for the 2008 A.S.E had Cert #005 of 7498. This does not mean that hey have already graded 7498 MS 70 silver eagles.. According to the show ANACS purchases 250,000 2008 Silver Eagles and will grade 7498 MS70 Silver Eagles and then stop so it will be looked on as a Limited edition.

 

I had mentioned earlier that this Program had featured ICG almost exclusively. The program claims now that they will be the only program to feature ANACS and they will occassionally feature ICG.

[mommam17]

Cameron posted ATS that he is still with ICG and will not talk about it.

[MAULEMALL]

Cameron posted ATS that he is still with ICG and will not talk about it.

Ilooked and can't find it.. Any Link??