Possibly the Beginning of the End. Prediction for 2008.

[Conder101]

Bongo needs to learn to stop shouting at people.

[James_OldeTowne]

In one respect the TPG's might love it. When a new counterfeit comes out the TPG unveils a new holder. The old holder loses confidence because "it was being counterfeited" and values for coins in the old holders start dropping. So everyone starts sending in their old slabs for reholdering. You could make a pretty good profit by that alone. Every time a new counterfeit appears you get $5 a coin to reholder all of your previously slabbed coins. Don't have to spend money on talented graders just lower paid slab sealers.

I was thinking this same thing. This is going to be a huge financial boon for at least the top two.

 

 

[Bruceswar]

In one respect the TPG's might love it. When a new counterfeit comes out the TPG unveils a new holder. The old holder loses confidence because "it was being counterfeited" and values for coins in the old holders start dropping. So everyone starts sending in their old slabs for reholdering. You could make a pretty good profit by that alone. Every time a new counterfeit appears you get $5 a coin to reholder all of your previously slabbed coins. Don't have to spend money on talented graders just lower paid slab sealers.

I was thinking this same thing. This is going to be a huge financial boon for at least the top two.

 

 

ANACS as well.. if I am not mistaken

[MarkFeld]

In one respect the TPG's might love it. When a new counterfeit comes out the TPG unveils a new holder. The old holder loses confidence because "it was being counterfeited" and values for coins in the old holders start dropping. So everyone starts sending in their old slabs for reholdering. You could make a pretty good profit by that alone. Every time a new counterfeit appears you get $5 a coin to reholder all of your previously slabbed coins. Don't have to spend money on talented graders just lower paid slab sealers.

I was thinking this same thing. This is going to be a huge financial boon for at least the top two.

 

I disagree. The "financial boon" from re-holdering revenue might be more than offset by the damage to consumer confidence in certified coins. That could eventually cost the grading companies far more than the re-holdering fees which might be generated.

[James_OldeTowne]

The "financial boon" from re-holdering revenue might be more than offset by the damage to consumer confidence in certified coins. That could eventually cost the grading companies far more than the re-holdering fees which might be generated.

Mark, I'm not sure I follow. If buyers lose confidence in certified coins, that will affect sellers of certified coins, rather than certifiers themselves, won't it ?

 

I would think that if anything, submissions would go up due to the number of raw counterfeits hitting the market, and reholders (to a new more-secure slab) would go up as well, due to suspicion of older less-secure slabs.

[MarkFeld]

The "financial boon" from re-holdering revenue might be more than offset by the damage to consumer confidence in certified coins. That could eventually cost the grading companies far more than the re-holdering fees which might be generated.

Mark, I'm not sure I follow. If buyers lose confidence in certified coins, that will affect sellers of certified coins, rather than certifiers themselves, won't it ?

 

I would think that if anything, submissions would go up due to the number of raw counterfeits hitting the market, and reholders (to a new more-secure slab) would go up as well, due to suspicion of older less-secure slabs.

James, it would hurt sellers, who, in many cases, are large submitters. If price premiums for certified coins fall, there will be fewer submissions. Less confidence on the part of buyers will negatively impact sellers, which, in turn, will negatively impact the grading companies. Like it or not, it is all tied in together, to some extent.

[James_OldeTowne]

James, it would hurt sellers, who, in many cases, are large submitters. If price premiums for certified coins fall, there will be fewer submissions. Less confidence on the part of buyers will negatively impact sellers, which, in turn, will negatively impact the grading companies. Like it or not, it is all tied in together, to some extent.

Ah, I get you now! Mark, thanks for the well-thought-out explanation.

[braddick]

I agree, there is no silver lining for the Services. Counterfeit coins/slabs will pain the market in so many ways. Taking away a collector's confidence in what it is he is purchasing is the most damaging of all.

[wayneherndon]

In one respect the TPG's might love it. When a new counterfeit comes out the TPG unveils a new holder. The old holder loses confidence because "it was being counterfeited" and values for coins in the old holders start dropping. So everyone starts sending in their old slabs for reholdering. You could make a pretty good profit by that alone. Every time a new counterfeit appears you get $5 a coin to reholder all of your previously slabbed coins. Don't have to spend money on talented graders just lower paid slab sealers.

I was thinking this same thing. This is going to be a huge financial boon for at least the top two.

 

 

If the counterfeits are good, then someone is going to have to closely inspect the coin and the holder as part of the process to make sure both are genuine. In that case, you're probably looking more at fees for regarding rather than fees for reholdering.

 

WH

[realone]

I just want to add something, if tyou have a cracked ngc holder, and it can be pried open to pull the coin out, you can send it to ngc for reholdering for a $5 reholdering charge. How is that for peace of mind. Don't you think it should be regraded?

[TJ'S Coins]

And now the most important question of all...Will they CAC?

 

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

This blatent counterfeiting by these chinese pirates (because that is what they are) is getting to the point where the U.S. Secret Service and the State Dept. need to starting putting some pressure on the chinese government to clean up their scat. The government of China has vested trading interests that they are putting in jeopardy because they don't inspect products for export (i.e. food and drugs), they don't enforce their own standards for lead paint on children's toys and other ignored product standards that makes the wheels of commerce turn in every other country on earth.

 

The Chinese Government can not continue to do business in the world market with counterfeits, unsafe and shoddy products and expect to become a respected world trade country. They need pressure exerted by western governments to make them play by the standards of world trade.

 

Excuse me for the rant, but I am getting tired of reading about crappy chinese products several times each blasted week!

[Keleum]

That problem fixes itelf doesn't it. I'm a parent with little ones, you think I or my wife are looking for that "made in china" label. I've heard my wife's circle of friends doubt clothes and basically anything else for children, made in china. Who says there's not lead paint on my elmo DVD. [made up example] The chinese EXECUTED a relatively high ranking official over that one, doesn't solve the problem but does send one heck of a message.

 

 

[Keleum]

Counterfits push the genuine out of circulation, that's always been true. Aren't Conders the prime historical example of that, run amok....

 

Searchable high res pictures of every valuable coin in the world, SWEET!!! Forgers heaven!!! A little more work, than coin in hand, but with that kind of database!!!

 

UV labels and inserts with a holo watermark, that's the answer....

 

 

 

[DC Dawg]

This blatent counterfeiting by these chinese pirates (because that is what they are) is getting to the point where the U.S. Secret Service and the State Dept. need to starting putting some pressure on the chinese government to clean up their scat. The government of China has vested trading interests that they are putting in jeopardy because they don't inspect products for export (i.e. food and drugs), they don't enforce their own standards for lead paint on children's toys and other ignored product standards that makes the wheels of commerce turn in every other country on earth.

The situation with Chinese questionable quality of goods and counterfeiting was discussed a few years ago when the question of renewing China's Most Favored Nation (MFN) trading status was sent to congress by the president. Congress was asked to grant MFN status to China for five years. In 2005, it pretty much passed along party lines.

 

When it comes time to have the government step up and provide the consumer protections that the various agencies and bureaus are chartered to provide, the policies of the administration gets in the way. The State Department diplomatic efforts are in the Middle East. There are little-to-no diplomatic efforts in Africa or North Korea where there are also significant conflicts. This was one of the reasons why Bill Richardson was asked to help with North Korea two years ago.

 

Funding for the US Secret Service has only marginally kept pace with inflation. Most of the increases have gone to the protective services division--the one that protects the president, vice president, diplomats, etc. While the threats to the US monetary sources have increased, the amount of resources available to the USSS for this protection has not changed--thus decreasing its effectiveness.

 

Then there's the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), whose commissioner turned down congress's offer to open the country's checkbook to provide any amount of money necessary to provide better more inspectors and update programs to monitor goods imported from China. Since when does an agency turn down money to make their jobs easier... except when there is another agenda!

 

The Chinese Government can not continue to do business in the world market with counterfeits, unsafe and shoddy products and expect to become a respected world trade country. They need pressure exerted by western governments to make them play by the standards of world trade.

The Chinese Government has said that it will do what it wants with or without the permission of the United States. China has warned that the potential penalty of any interference will be their flooding the market with US Debt Bonds. China holds just under $300 billion in US debt bonds. If they go to sell those bonds, it will weaken the dollar so badly that some economists believe the US economy will collapse under the weight of undervalued paper. Then again, economists think that the Chinese will weaken their own economy because they use those securities to back their own. Unless they have other assets to back those securities, the Chinese will probably not carry though on this threat. But it is still a possibility.

 

Further, lobbyists from the various retail association continue to pressure congress and the administration saying that putting further pressure on China and closing trading barriers would cause inflation in the United States. The Retail Industry Leaders Association (RILA), a lobbying group whose largest member is Wal-Mart, has lobbied against the 100-percent scanning of port containers citing potential supply chain delays. RILA continues to lobby against any security and monitoring improvements, regardless of the reasons. It has been rumored that RILA lobbyists (primarily Asa Hutchinson, former undersecretary at Homeland Security) were instrumental in the statements by CPSC Commissioner Nancy Nord turning down additional funding for enforcement activities.

 

Excuse me for the rant, but I am getting tired of reading about crappy chinese products several times each blasted week!

I don't mind the rant. In fact, I hope adding the facts to your rant helps you rant even more. But next time, rant to your congressional representatives!

 

Scott

[Oldtrader3]

Here in the wonderful sodden, green state of Washington we do not have a government of the people. Our primary elections are not valid and are not counted. Therefore our candidates are never chosen by the people. Our elected representatives don't ever do what they say they will. In fact, nothing ever gets done. No politition ever gets voted out of office. Light rail for Seattle was approved when I moved to California (40) years ago. Light rail was again approved in 2003. It still has not been built, but we are paying the gas taxes for it!

 

They increased our gas taxes $0.06/gallon to dike I-5 when the great Lewis River flood closed it for a week in 2002. The money was argued over by our dear politicians for about a year, during which it was decided to do nothing and the money was wasted somewhere else. Then the next flood of the Lewis river occured this January and $10 billon in commerce was lost during the 2 weeks that I-5 was flooded and closed this time. The dikes are still not planned to be built.

 

In response to this crisis, our wonder women Governor (Gregoire), personally took over WSDOT and put a totally incompetant women in charge of roads. This woman promptly closed I-90 for almost (3) weeks for avalanche "concerns".

 

I have written to Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell (our Senators) until my fingers almost fell off to no avail! We live in the People's Republic of Washington were never a disparaging word is heard because it would be impolite!

 

Actually, I am moving to Oregon in a couple months and the totally incompetant government of Washington will no longer be my problem. Gas is $0.20/gallon cheaper in Oregon, there is no 8% sales tax and almost everything else costs less there. Being retired and on a fixed income, I will welcome the change. Washington is wasting resources like crazy. They have the highest % of college graduates in the U.S. and the lowest average pay for professionals. I am fed up and am leaving!

[cpm9ball]

OT3........It is the same no matter where you live. There is no such thing as an honest politician!

 

Chris