CAC really needs to offer a slab service.

[BillJones]

Currently CAC is offering what amounts to a cross-over service without the crack-out. If some of you get what you want, every coin that amounts to anything will have to be sent to CAC to get the “CAC football.” Otherwise those us who have substantial holdings will never be able to sell our collections for their full market value.

 

This leads to a very obvious question. If one happened to own a raw coin that is really important, the time might come when getting that piece certified will become a two part process. First the coin would have to be sent to NGC or PCGS for grading and attribution. Then, assuming that the TPG graded it, it will have to be sent to CAC for final certification that PCGS or NGC got it right.

 

Why should the owners of significant raw coins have to go through this process? Shouldn’t CAC offer a slabbing service which would by-pass the first, now unnecessary step? It is intuitively obvious that CAC is vastly superior to PCGS and NGC because the assumption is that they always get it right. As such their slab would truly be the “Bentley” of slabs … something far superior to the Buicks and Chryslers of the world to say nothing of the Fords, Chevys and third world Yu-gos.

 

I’m not making this suggestion with my tongue totally in my cheek. The CAC ownership and a great many people on this forum have set the CAC at the top of the mountain. It’s only logical that an organization that aspires to discredit and replace the industry leaders should offer a full menu of services. Their loyal customers deserve nothing less.

 

[mommam17]

I like CAC just the way it is. I don`t want my coins cracked out of slabs that some have been in for 20 years. I just want the nicer coins to get credit for what they are, with the CAC football sticker. PCGS and NGC are successful because collectors have accepted them and CAC will be the same way.I don`t think CAC is trying to discredit PCGS or NGC. PCGS might think so, the way threads are booted across the street, but NGC seems to be cool with them.

[DirtyGoldMan]

At some level I agree with you, Bill, and even suggested it to the head honcho this summer.

 

However, what some forget (or have not realized) is that the stickering process is not the core mission of the CAC. This just sets the table for buying and selling coins within the CAC dealer network, which is the real aim of the CAC, and can go on in perpetuity. The actual grading and approval process should be intense for a while, and then eventually die down as the pool of potentially approved coins gets smaller. They do not intend to make money stickering the coins.

 

Finally, why worry about it until you have to sell some coins? I plan to do nothing with my core holdings until the time comes to sell. Who knows? Twenty years from now there might be a completely new grading service that trumps the incumbents.

[Houston Investor]

I don't see any need for CAC from my own perspective, especially with the kind of material I do - Bullion, Currency, and Numismatic coins under $1000. The major grading services, especially NGC do a fine job as it is for what I need at present. Collectors need to take responsibility and do their own homework.

 

I basically see CAC as a marketing strategy primarily initiated by a few major holders of big ticket coins in their inventories which they would like to move quicker and for more money. Its a great two-way synergy for them if they can pull this off. Considering the fact the PCGS 3000, a major indicator of numismatic US coins has had trouble breaking a 1% gain for 2007 and a recession looming, CAC has a major mountain to climb. Based on a poll I started on another thread, about 70% of the respondents said they would not pay a 15% premium or greater for CAC coins. I used the 15% based on my analysis some major CAC dealer's inventories who's coins (based on my sample) are priced about 15% above other major dealers (Non CAC). It remains to be seen if this will carry over to auction venues like Teletrade or ebay.

 

I dispute the idea that CACs's evaluation of coins is somehow superior to everyone else. I do not see them in the same league as ANACS, ICG, NGC, PCGS. And considering the glut of slab services, I can't blame them for not wanting to enter this arena. From what I have seen of them online (editorials / forums) their lame excuses, dodging of questions, attacking those with differing opinions, calling people wannabees sends me a major red flag. Thats no way to run a business or project a professional image. If I were CEO of CAC, I would pull these people from these forums and focus on upgrading my website, marketing, and expand my effort to get more coins stickered (increase market place exposure) before a competitor stickering service surfaced.

 

 

[BillJones]

I don't see any need for CAC. The major grading services, especially NGC do a fine job as it is. Collectors neet to take responsibility and do their own homework.

 

I basically see CAC as a marketing gimmick ployed by a few major holders of big ticket coins in their inventories which they would like to move quicker and for more money. Its a great two-way synergy for them if they can pull this off. Considering the fact the PCGS 3000, a major indicator of numismatic US coins has had trouble breaking a 1% gain for 2007 and a recession looming, CAC has a major mountain to climb. Based on a poll I started on another thread, about 70% of the respondents said they would not pay a 15% premium or greater for CAC coins. I used the 15% based on my analysis of a major CAC dealer's inventory who's coins are priced about 15% above based on data from several other major dealers (non cac stickered) on average.

 

I also dispute the idea that CACs's evaluation of coins is somehow superior to everyone else. I am very unimpressed with the individuals on their roster I have had contact with in the forums and don't see them in the same league as ANACS, ICG, NGC, PCGS. From what I have seen of them online (editorials / forums) their lame excuses, dodging of questions, attacking those with differing opinions, calling people wannabees sends me a major red flag. Thats no way to run a business or project a professional image. If I were CEO of CAC, I would pull these people from these forums and focus on upgrading my website, marketing, and expand my effort to get more coins stickered (increase market place exposure) before a competitor stickering service surfaced.

 

I hope that you are right, Parker. I hope that this CAC thing will be just blip on the radar. If it’s not, it will be like a vampire service that takes blood from the coin certification market and gives little back in return. The double certification problem will get worse if their business model holds up. If The Wall Street Journal ever published article about how coin collectors and investors had to send their coins to two certification services to get the best market price for their holdings, this business will be a laughing stock.

 

My contacts with the ring leaders of the CAC organization have been very negative for the most part. While I'm far from the biggest buyer, I have spent more than $100,000 a year on coins, including my business, each year for the more than decade. Yet, the CAC people continue to go out their way to antagonize me. There is no interest in mending fences, which could encourage me to at look at their inventory. All it is Attack! Attack! Attack! on every level from my business to my private activities as a collector. It’s always the needle; never the handshake.

 

If this is an effective way to do business, the case study program at the Harvard Business School and the Dale Carnegie people will need to add a new chapter to their textbooks: “Building Your Customer Base with Insults, Intimidation and Rude Behavior.”

 

[CTcollector1]

Currently CAC is offering what amounts to a cross-over service without the crack-out. If some of you get what you want, every coin that amounts to anything will have to be sent to CAC to get the “CAC football.” Otherwise those us who have substantial holdings will never be able to sell our collections for their full market value.

 

 

If your coins are truly nice, they realize their full potential with or without CAC.....

[Houston Investor]

I agree with you Bill, their behavior (CAC Principals I have encountered) is not excactly geared towards winning friends and influencing people.

[MarkFeld]

Otherwise those us who have substantial holdings will never be able to sell our collections for their full market value.

Bill, your concerns/fears are completely opposite those of some other people who say CAC will be a non-factor. And in many cases you will all be correct.

 

Presently, some strong buyers don't care if coins are even certified, while others might insist upon PCGS coins only. Likewise, some buyers won't care at all about CAC approval and others might want CAC approved coins only. But it is likely that a large majority will fall somewhere in between those two extremes. And unless most or all of the strongest potential buyers for your coins insist upon CAC approval, you should have no problem getting "full market value" for them. CAC is not for everyone, nor should it be.

 

Instead of worrying and complaining about CAC and situations which might not even arise in the future, why not spend some of your time on actual, current market circumstances? What about the required double certification and extra fees involved for non-PCGS coins which must be crossed by PCGS in order that you get "full market value"?

[Tradedollarnut]

I agree with you Bill, their behavior (CAC Principals I have encountered) is not excactly geared towards winning friends and influencing people.

 

That's because you are a bottom feeding self proclaimed 'dealer' who, if by chance handles a nice coin it's because you ripped it from a customer at bid or less. You already had your mind made up that you don't need CAC [you're right - you don't] but that doesn't stop you from pontificating against it even to the point of starting completely misleading 'analyses' threads.

 

 

 

What about the required double certification and extra fees involved for non-PCGS coins which must be crossed by PCGS in order that you get "full market value"?

 

Touche'

[BillJones]

Instead of worrying and complaining about CAC and situations which might not even arise in the future, why not spend some of your time on actual, current market circumstances? What about the required double certification and extra fees involved for non-PCGS coins which must be crossed by PCGS in order that you get "full market value"?

 

The PCGS situation has never applied to me. The main place where that situation exists in the ultra high grade modern coin market, and I don't sell those coins. The only place I've purchased has been to get my Registry type set up to 99% complete (a personal goal). In that case I've bought the "losers" - coins that got into PR-69 DeCam holders at short dollars.

 

I've passed on doing want lists from customers who gave me the “PCGS ONLY” mandate for two reasons. First life is too short and finding properly graded, attractive coins is too hard to waste time on PCGS Kool Aid drinkers. Second, I oppose monopoly situations, and for that reason I have never had any desire to see PCGS hegemony take control of the coin market.

 

[Tradedollarnut]

It does NOT just apply to moderns. NGC MS65 seated dollars sell for $20-25K. PCGS MS65 seated dollars sell for $35-45k. Don't believe me? Look it up!

[MarkFeld]

The PCGS situation has never applied to me. The main place where that situation exists in the ultra high grade modern coin market, and I don't sell those coins. The only place I've purchased has been to get my Registry type set up to 99% complete (a personal goal). In that case I've bought the "losers" - coins that got into PR-69 DeCam holders at short dollars.

Whether you know it or not or admit it to yourself or not, it probably applies to you as much as or more than CAC ever will. You sell non-modern NGC coins, right? Many of them bring considerably more in PCGS holders, because of the holder, not the coin, and surely you know that.

[BillJones]

It does NOT just apply to moderns. NGC MS65 seated dollars sell for $20-25K. PCGS MS65 seated dollars sell for $35-45k. Don't believe me? Look it up!

 

I've never had anything to do with that market and never will have anything to do with it. It's beyond my resources and the resources of all but one with whom I have worked over the years customers.

 

BTW your "bottom feeder" comment was totally unfair and without any basis in fact. You should retract it and apologize.

 

Edited to say I though TDN was calling me a "bottom feeder." Sorry for the confusion.

 

[DirtyGoldMan]

BTW your "bottom feeder" comment was totally unfair and without any basis in fact. You should retract it and apologize.

 

I cannot speak for TDN, but I believe that this comment was not made in reference to you. There is someone else who fits the bill, who legitimately earned his bottom feeder status ATS as Derek2100, and who has softened up his approach a little bit since getting banned over there and moving here.

[BillJones]

The PCGS situation has never applied to me. The main place where that situation exists in the ultra high grade modern coin market, and I don't sell those coins. The only place I've purchased has been to get my Registry type set up to 99% complete (a personal goal). In that case I've bought the "losers" - coins that got into PR-69 DeCam holders at short dollars.

Whether you know it or not or admit it to yourself or not, it probably applies to you as much as or more than CAC ever will. You sell non-modern NGC coins, right? Many of them bring considerably more in PCGS holders, because of the holder, not the coin, and surely you know that.

 

Nope, I've bought and sold PCGS and NGC coins on the same levels. I guess the difference is I don't buy and sell coins I don't like. And perhaps the reason I've done that is that I seldom handle anything that grades higher MS-64. Perhaps when you are talking about MS-65 and higher PCGS rules, but PCSG does not rule my place in the market.

 

Yes ON AVERAGE PCGS is a little more conservative, but you can't take that statement to bank and buy coins sight unseen with it. I've seen more than my share of PCGS coins that over graded in the holder and not worth any premium at all over their NGC counterparts. In fact I've had several situations where I've two coins in the same grade in PCGS and NGC holders and the NGC coin was better. If you want to pay more for lesser coin, becaue it's in a PCGS holder, be my guest. That not the way I do things.

[Tradedollarnut]

BTW your "bottom feeder" comment was totally unfair and without any basis in fact. You should retract it and apologize.

 

On the internet, It's common practice to put the initial comment in italics that one is responding to, Bill. It's 1000% obvious who I was addressing.

 

[BillJones]

BTW your "bottom feeder" comment was totally unfair and without any basis in fact. You should retract it and apologize.

 

I cannot speak for TDN, but I believe that this comment was not made in reference to you. There is someone else who fits the bill, who legitimately earned his bottom feeder status ATS as Derek2100, and who has softened up his approach a little bit since getting banned over there and moving here.

 

Sorry, I misread the post. I've corrected my first comment.

[Tradedollarnut]

Yes ON AVERAGE PCGS is a little more conservative, but you can't take that statement to bank and buy coins sight unseen with it. I've seen more than my share of PCGS coins that over graded in the holder and not worth any premium at all over their NGC counterparts. In fact I've had several situations where I've two coins in the same grade in PCGS and NGC holders and the NGC coin was better.

 

I agree with this 100%. Wouldn't it be great if there was an expert who could give you their opinion as to which coins in PCGS and NGC holders were actually solid for the grade or better? You know - to make one feel a little better about what one is buying? Perhaps the expert could put a sticker or something on the nice ones to let you know his opinion...

[Tradedollarnut]

BTW your "bottom feeder" comment was totally unfair and without any basis in fact. You should retract it and apologize.

 

I cannot speak for TDN, but I believe that this comment was not made in reference to you. There is someone else who fits the bill, who legitimately earned his bottom feeder status ATS as Derek2100, and who has softened up his approach a little bit since getting banned over there and moving here.

 

Sorry, I misread the post. I've corrected my first comment.

 

No problem. We may have our disagreements, but I've seen some of the coins you own and know you have a good eye. I also have heard good things about you when you were dealing. Despite our personal disagreements, I respect you numismatically.

[PerryHall]

Currently CAC is offering what amounts to a cross-over service without the crack-out. If some of you get what you want, every coin that amounts to anything will have to be sent to CAC to get the CAC football. Otherwise those us who have substantial holdings will never be able to sell our collections for their full market value.

 

 

If your coins are truly nice, they realize their full potential with or without CAC.....

 

Bingo!!! Someone finally gets it. If a CAC stickered coin bring a high price at auction, how can you prove that you wouldn't get the same high price without the sticker based only on the merits of the coin?

 

 

 

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Not necessarily true. Which brings more for the very same coin - a really PQ 64 or a low end 65? Almost always the low end 65.

 

What this means is that irrespective of the quality of the coin, the plastic DOES matter. Of course, I definitely agree that the CAC sticker will not nearly matter near as much as the number on the slab...

[MarkFeld]

Nope, I've bought and sold PCGS and NGC coins on the same levels. I guess the difference is I don't buy and sell coins I don't like. And perhaps the reason I've done that is that I seldom handle anything that grades higher MS-64. Perhaps when you are talking about MS-65 and higher PCGS rules, but PCSG does not rule my place in the market.

If you've been able to conduct your business that way, there's a good chance that you won't need your coins to be stickered by CAC to get what you should for them. So quit worrying and complaining about something that might never happen.

[RWB]

Or…..they could offer free seminars in coin grading at every major show to help collectors slowly wean themselves off of the third- and fourth-party grading addiction.

 

Instead of more slabs, more stickers, more “grading opinions” and more ignorance – how about spreading a little knowledge and consistency?

 

[End of rhetorical, idealistic comments.]

 

[Zoins]

Or…..they could offer free seminars in coin grading at every major show to help collectors slowly wean themselves off of the third- and fourth-party grading addiction.

 

Instead of more slabs, more stickers, more “grading opinions” and more ignorance – how about spreading a little knowledge and consistency?

 

[End of rhetorical, idealistic comments.]

Dealers have been talking about a sight unseen market for years. More education doesn't necessarily lead to the goal of developing a sight unseen market.

 

Now that there's a new helm at the ANA, perhaps we'll see more educational programs from them.