Should collectors band together for a coin dealer feedback system?

[MikeInFL]

Moovy's thread about people being taken advantage of got me to thinking...

 

Early in my numismatic career, it took me a while to find the "good guys" in the coin game. More than once I was taken advantage of, and while I certainly learned a lot in so doing, I have to believe that much of this pain could have been avoided.

 

Do you think that we collectors should band together and form a dealer-feedback system (similar to resellerratings.com) where collectors could rate dealers and comment on transactions?

 

Or is the Darwinian method of numismatic education necessary to be sure we learn the harsh realities of the coin game?

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

[bsshog40]

You know Mike, I think it could be a realistic idea in a small world as is this forum, but when it's open to the WWW, I think it just opens the doors for whoever wants to make themselves look good. Unless there is a way to securely monitor this feedback system.

[IGWT]

I wish that something like that were possible. But I'd have trouble trusting the reviews. Too many people would leave unwarranted feedback (whether good or bad).

[MikeInFL]

This just occured to me... We could rate them from PO-1 to MS-70....

 

FWIW, I think we could get past the two issues you raise. One way would simply require a $1 paypal donation or a valid credit card to get a userid (to stop multiple userids per person). Another would be to only allow one rating for every six months for each dealer from one user (to stop multiple ratings per dealer i.e. moles).

[IGWT]

This just occured to me... We could rate them from PO-1 to MS-70....

 

FWIW, I think we could get past the two issues you raise. One way would simply require a $1 paypal donation or a valid credit card to get a userid (to stop multiple userids per person). Another would be to only allow one rating for every six months for each dealer from one user (to stop multiple ratings per dealer i.e. moles).

 

That would solve a problem, but not the one I was thinking of. I'm thinking of collectors who either (1) don't know enough to realize they got burned (and leave an unwarranted positive review), or (2) are unreasonably demanding (and leave an unjustified negative review). A majority of collectors fall into one of those two categories.

[Just Bob]

This just occured to me... We could rate them from PO-1 to MS-70....

 

:roflmao:Now THAT is FUNNY!

 

 

 

Mike, I think that yours is an idea that is definitely worthy of serious consideration. The potential for abuse is obviously there, but, given what seems the prevailing attitude on this board - that a majority of dealers, given the chance, will take advantage of the unwitting -it may be an idea whose time has come.

 

[Bruceswar]

to quote TDN "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics" The only way people are going to learn is to make mistakes. Sure it would be nice to know who the good guys are from the get go, but alot of people learn from mistakes. As nice of an Idea as it is, it would be abused to prop up some dealers and or services. Dealers would just have customers leave good feedback for them and prop them up. Ebay has shown you can have good feedback and still be bad.

[GDJMSP]

I think like in anything else, for the feedback to be useful - you would have to consider the source of that feedback. So unless you knew the source, it really wouldn't mean much.

[Just Bob]

to quote TDN "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics" The only way people are going to learn is to make mistakes. Sure it would be nice to know who the good guys are from the get go, but alot of people learn from mistakes. As nice of an Idea as it is, it would be abused to prop up some dealers and or services. Dealers would just have customers leave good feedback for them and prop them up. Ebay has shown you can have good feedback and still be bad.

 

Bruce, you make a valid point, and your last sentence is very true, but I have to, respectfully, question your second sentence. Can being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous dealer really be considered a mistake on the part of the collector?

[jesbroken]

Mike,

A resounding YES! A path can be found if an attempt is made. By using this forum as a sounding board, the problems can be found and solved before ever installing the system. This may take a while, but imagine the new avenues and resources we would gain practically overnight for coin purchases and perhaps even coin sales. Upgrades may be done by trades rather than just upgrading and keeping the old coin. There are a lot of very capable people in numismatics on this board and if all were to apply themselves to this issue, I have no doubt that it could be done.

[Bruceswar]

to quote TDN "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics" The only way people are going to learn is to make mistakes. Sure it would be nice to know who the good guys are from the get go, but alot of people learn from mistakes. As nice of an Idea as it is, it would be abused to prop up some dealers and or services. Dealers would just have customers leave good feedback for them and prop them up. Ebay has shown you can have good feedback and still be bad.

 

Bruce, you make a valid point, and your last sentence is very true, but I have to, respectfully, question your second sentence. Can being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous dealer really be considered a mistake on the part of the collector?

 

Nobody likes to get taken in life. Just like anything else in life it happens. Car care, Doctors, etc. This is a hobby and should you not know what you are doing before you go dropping big money into something? Whatever big money is to you. Maybe just me but when I take on a hobby I look into a bit before I drop big money into it. Nearly everybody who thinks they can just waltz into this hobby and make a quick buck is gonna find themselfs in the hole soon. Bound to happen. The person who takes a bit more time, learns a bit and then buys will be less likely to fail. If you prepare yourself you will be less likely to get taken by anybody in life.

[michael]

Or is the Darwinian method of numismatic education necessary to be sure we learn the harsh realities of the coin game?

 

Your thoughts? per the above yes as i think this is the only way to learn in the coin game from my limited experiences in this game as such

[Just Bob]

to quote TDN "There is no Santa Claus in numismatics" The only way people are going to learn is to make mistakes. Sure it would be nice to know who the good guys are from the get go, but alot of people learn from mistakes. As nice of an Idea as it is, it would be abused to prop up some dealers and or services. Dealers would just have customers leave good feedback for them and prop them up. Ebay has shown you can have good feedback and still be bad.

 

Bruce, you make a valid point, and your last sentence is very true, but I have to, respectfully, question your second sentence. Can being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous dealer really be considered a mistake on the part of the collector?

 

Nobody likes to get taken in life. Just like anything else in life it happens. Car care, Doctors, etc. This is a hobby and should you not know what you are doing before you go dropping big money into something? Whatever big money is to you. Maybe just me but when I take on a hobby I look into a bit before I drop big money into it. Nearly everybody who thinks they can just waltz into this hobby and make a quick buck is gonna find themselfs in the hole soon. Bound to happen. The person who takes a bit more time, learns a bit and then buys will be less likely to fail. If you prepare yourself you will be less likely to get taken by anybody in life.

 

Well said. I understand your point, and agree wholeheartedly.

[realone]

A great idea that unfortunately will never come to pass. On the ats if one were to set one up all the dealers and their buddies would make the system useless or in fact probably so misleading as to render your idea dangerous by giving the opposite info of what you are trying to get across. I am not was familiar with this board to comment. But it seems like there is a good ole boy aspect on the ats.

Now if you want to start giving dealers DAC stickers which I think is what you are saying who do we trust to give them out? Let me answer that, I would trust for instance you and Mark Feld and many on this forum to sticker the dealers and maybe thats what we have to do, take a vote and take it upon our selves to set it up. Heck it is for our own good and anyone else who wants to gleam from it. It should be mostly trusted collectors and a couple of trusted dealers that will all know are sincere. Lets do it, it can only help. BTW I agree collectors need to learn, and the hard way is sometimes the only way. I did, and I am better off, but I really don't know if it was necessary for me to be burnt so many times by so many dealers, I guess I am just a little stupid so I won't be on the new board.

[skippy]

I think the results of such a system would be very similar to that which we see in eBay feedback.

 

If you think eBay's feedback system is good, then this might work. Personally, I think eBay's feedback system is not that helpful.

 

Plus, since eBay fully controls the venue they can eliminate some of the worst feedback abuses (like leaving tons of positive feedback for your buddies) which would be much more difficult to control in an open system.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Should collectors band together for a coin dealer feedback system?

 

It is a fantastic idea that has been proposed many, many times, and I only wish that I knew how to do it. Furthermore, if true coin collectors could band together some sort of non-profit organization to sticker coins, I would be 100% FOR such a venture.

[DC Dawg]

Should collectors band together for a coin dealer feedback system?

 

It is a fantastic idea that has been proposed many, many times, and I only wish that I knew how to do it. Furthermore, if true coin collectors could band together some sort of non-profit organization to sticker coins, I would be 100% FOR such a venture.

On the surface, this is a great idea. But then I think about the eBay feedback system and wonder how effective it would be? Is the eBay feedback system an accurate measure of a seller's or buyer's actions?

 

Scott

[jesbroken]

Maybe we are looking globally and should be looking locally. When I mentioned this in moovyz post, I was thinking along the lines of keeping this within the forum.

We tend to have a fair knowledge of each other-at least to a point. Even if certain BAD sellers sent in new members to up their feedback score, they couldn't do it unnoticed. The sudden influx of new members with feedback might be a clue!

I feel that if Tomb, Mike, Mike and Mike, James, Mark, Lou, Jeff, Jason, CT and the many more reputable people listed trustworthy dealers, as to their opinions, I would be willing to "take that to the bank" so to speak. Good, honest dealers should be named and utilized for their honesty and integrity. Poor or worse dealers should not. Instead of just grading a dealer, explain your feedback pos or neg. As long as it is local, it would not be unrealistic. No question, if this grew to Ebay feedback levels, there would be no way to control its quality or honesty-as Ebay's feedback(a joke) is proof. I hope this doesn't fall to the wayside.

My great uncle had a method of teaching via experience by placing our fingers on the warm morning stove to give us a slight burn and hopefully prevent us from getting a really bad burn. We never forgot this lesson, but would rather have just been told and if we didn't listen-our fault. No doubt experience is the best teacher, if you survive the class.

 

[MikeKing]

the last time I complained about a dealer on this forum, I got a phone call from them all bent out of shape and I had the post removed out of kindness to them.

 

not only do dealers watch and read the boards, the auction firms do also, but there are also people on this board who will notify their friends/dealers/whatever if there is something unflattering said by them.

 

may I remind everyone that the name of this board is:

 

Collectors Society

 

not dealer's society.

[MikeInFL]

This just occured to me... We could rate them from PO-1 to MS-70....

 

FWIW, I think we could get past the two issues you raise. One way would simply require a $1 paypal donation or a valid credit card to get a userid (to stop multiple userids per person). Another would be to only allow one rating for every six months for each dealer from one user (to stop multiple ratings per dealer i.e. moles).

 

That would solve a problem, but not the one I was thinking of. I'm thinking of collectors who either (1) don't know enough to realize they got burned (and leave an unwarranted positive review), or (2) are unreasonably demanding (and leave an unjustified negative review). A majority of collectors fall into one of those two categories.

 

Good points, as usual, Lou.

 

I would surmise to say that this is a similar challenge faced by all consumer-based ratings systems, and this "skewing" would be the same across all dealers, and thus would be "averaged out" with enough responses.

 

Said a bit differently, I think the cream would still rise to the top....Mike

[jesbroken]

MikeK,

Would the poor dealers have to be named? Why not name only the fair and honest dealers. Surely, a legitmate complaint could not be raised even by the unnamed dealers. This would still yet reward the worthy sellers and benefit all consumers. Imagine a list of 60 or more recommended dealers for fairness and truthfulness-it would be a boon to this forum's members for sure. No one's feeling would be hurt any more than a football player not making the heisman list. I truly believe this could be done on a limited scale.

Jim

[MarkFeld]

OK, I'll start.

 

I can easily recommend Pinnacle Rarities, for whom I worked for 6 years and with whom I have conducted business, both before and after that time. They sell nice coins at fair prices, they're honest and easy and enjoyable to work with. Am I biased in their favor? You bet I am, and it's for the right reasons - they earned it over a period of many years.

 

If other posters also start "naming names", I will check back in later and mention a few other good-guy dealers.

[MikeInFL]

Names on my short list of "good guys" with whom I've had extensive experience with:

 

Mark Feld

Coin Rarities Online -- Dave and John

Shawn Yancey

Doug Bird

 

 

[MikeKing]

well, you'll have to make it anonymous otherwise your data will be skewed.

e.g. when I wrote my post about dealer X, 6 people wrote to me privately about how they had negative interactions with that firm, but were unwilling to post about it. There you have it. Make it anonymous. Maybe a post could be made listing the dealers with a rating system between 1-5 or 1-10, 10 being the most positive. A breakdown would be more difficult to do, perhaps with individual ratings for a,b,c, and d.

 

I fooled around with the poll thing a bit and could only come up with something like this, with multiple polls in one post

 

 

 

 

[MikeKing]

OK, I'll start.

 

I can easily recommend Pinnacle Rarities, for whom I worked for 6 years and with whom I have conducted business, both before and after that time. They sell nice coins at fair prices, they're honest and easy and enjoyable to work with. Am I biased in their favor? You bet I am, and it's for the right reasons - they earned it over a period of many years.

 

If other posters also start "naming names", I will check back in later and mention a few other good-guy dealers.

 

Mark, you're a dealer, your viewpoint is not consistent with the whole idea and yes, you are biased. You've never had to deal with Pinnacle as a collector. And as I told you, I posted a complaint about a dealer, six people privately mailed me to complain about them also but were unwilling to post their issues. It can only be unbiased if it is anonymous and dealers stay out of it.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

Jim, sorry, I didn't see your question.

Yes, it might be better to just not say the negative, and just give positive affirmation and go from there.

 

 

[jesbroken]

Anonymous feedback would be a waste of time for me. The point being missed completely of gathering information from reliable people regarding reliable dealers. So what if they are dealers themselves, take their opinions as you wish. As long as you trust their judgement, trust their choices or do not. No force is being utilized on anyone. Again, this is all JMHO.

 

[Conder101]

This is a hobby and should you not know what you are doing before you go dropping big money into something? Whatever big money is to you. Maybe just me but when I take on a hobby I look into a bit before I drop big money into it. Nearly everybody who thinks they can just waltz into this hobby and make a quick buck is gonna find themselves in the hole soon. Bound to happen.

AMEN! All too often we see people come bouncing into this hobby "Gosh I think coins are neat and I think I can make lots of money on them, I've been reading about them all morning. Gee these sure look pretty, I think I will drop a ton of money on them. Think I can sell them for a profit next weekend?" And some people think we need to try and protect this type of person from themselves. As a general rule people very seldom learn much from the mistakes of others, they have to learn from their own mistakes. Trying to keep them from making mistakes only delays the learning process, and often times makes it even worse because they gain confidence from their earlier "protected" dealings and go into their first unprotected dealing in even a bigger way than they would have. It's better to not protect them and let them get singed on some small transactions first before they get seriously burned on a big one. And if you don't learn, Darwin was right, you won't survive.

[DC Dawg]

"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them." -George Santayana

 

(gee... did I just have a carsoncity moment!! )

Hey CC:

 

Scott

[realone]

Here are my top 10 dealers (not in any special order) or my short list as Mike puts it:

Pinnacle Rarities (Dan)

Wayne Herndon

Mark Feld

Rick Kay

 

Why i recommend them:

they won't screw you, they stand behind the coins they sell, they are fair, they aren't greedy, they look for long term relationships and make a great attempt to keep them, they give their time and expertise. Just plain good people, what can I say I like them.

 

Edited to say I wish there were another 6 great dealers that I have dealt with, i would have more great coins

 

 

[PerryHall]

Here are my top 10 dealers (not in any special order) or my short list as Mike puts it:

Pinnacle Rarities (Dan)

Wayne Herndon

Mark Feld

Rick Kay

 

 

Where are the other six?