wiped coins?

[sakorick]

I purchased an 1885CC on Ebay for 599. I sent it off to be graded and it came back from PCI, MS62, "obverse wiped on cheek". What does this do to the value? Regards, Rick.

[MunkyMan95]

Um, why did you send it to PCI?

[ibyandsellsmith]

I'm not sure what wiped on cheek refers to, but I'd say they mean cleaned. It hurts the value quite a bit considering a TPG would likely bodybag the coin.

[BillJones]

Um, why did you send it to PCI?

 

Perhaps he knew that there was a problem when he bought or saw it.

 

"Whipped" means that there are hairlines on the cheek that were caused by a brush or more likely a rub with a cloth. It's hard to say why someone did that, but usually it is a way to try to remove scratches or make the coin more shiny.

 

The bad news is that no way that this coin will sell for Mint State money despite the fact that PCI called it Unc. The good news is that the spread between the circulated grades and average Mint State (e.g. MS-63) is not great for the 1885-CC because very few circulated examples of this are around. Still collectors will not flock to your door to buy this coin. For only a little more money, they can buy an unimparied example.

[carson city]

Photo would help !

[sakorick]

Um, why did you send it to PCI?

 

I sent it to PCI because I suspected the coin had been cleaned. It's cheaper to find out you've been taken and at least it gets slabbed..... in this case, it would appear only the cheek was cleaned.....so I ask again, how much is the value damaged here. It books for 740. I can truthfully say it is at least MS62 looks closer to 64. I've compared it to two other NGC MS 64 1885CC's. Regards, Rick.

[sakorick]

Here are pics of the coin. Regards, Rick.

[MarkFeld]

Um, why did you send it to PCI?

 

I sent it to PCI because I suspected the coin had been cleaned. It's cheaper to find out you've been taken and at least it gets slabbed..... in this case, it would appear only the cheek was cleaned.....so I ask again, how much is the value damaged here. It books for 740. I can truthfully say it is at least MS62 looks closer to 64. I've compared it to two other NGC MS 64 1885CC's. Regards, Rick.

Under the circumstances, my guess is that it's worth approximately whatever an MS60 would sell for.

[rbrown4]

Um, why did you send it to PCI?

 

I sent it to PCI because I suspected the coin had been cleaned. It's cheaper to find out you've been taken and at least it gets slabbed..... in this case, it would appear only the cheek was cleaned.....so I ask again, how much is the value damaged here. It books for 740. I can truthfully say it is at least MS62 looks closer to 64. I've compared it to two other NGC MS 64 1885CC's. Regards, Rick.

Under the circumstances, my guess is that it's worth approximately whatever an MS60 would sell for.

 

Mark and others, this leads me back to a question I have asked before but not really been able to obtain a good answer. As with this coin, if one has a coin that has been slabbed by say ANACS with MS 60 details because of cleaning, wiping etc. how does one go about determining the expected market value of this coin. I realize it all depends on the coin itself, it's rarity, demand etc. but as a general rule how does one deal with this. Or is this area of the hobby so subjective that is is totally dependent on the specific coin and potential buyers?

 

Rey

[MarkFeld]

Um, why did you send it to PCI?

 

I sent it to PCI because I suspected the coin had been cleaned. It's cheaper to find out you've been taken and at least it gets slabbed..... in this case, it would appear only the cheek was cleaned.....so I ask again, how much is the value damaged here. It books for 740. I can truthfully say it is at least MS62 looks closer to 64. I've compared it to two other NGC MS 64 1885CC's. Regards, Rick.

Under the circumstances, my guess is that it's worth approximately whatever an MS60 would sell for.

 

Mark and others, this leads me back to a question I have asked before but not really been able to obtain a good answer. As with this coin, if one has a coin that has been slabbed by say ANACS with MS 60 details because of cleaning, wiping etc. how does one go about determining the expected market value of this coin. I realize it all depends on the coin itself, it's rarity, demand etc. but as a general rule how does one deal with this. Or is this area of the hobby so subjective that is is totally dependent on the specific coin and potential buyers?

 

Rey

Rey, unfortunately, there really is no good answer that will apply in most cases. I don't even deal in such coins, but here is how I would handle it....

 

If, for example, a problem coin were net graded to "MS60 details" I would examine it and ask myself how it compared in terms of both desirability and quality to a non-problem MS60, as well as an AU. Depending upon the particulars, the coin might be worth more or less to me than an AU without problems. If the problem that caused the net grade was really severe, the coin might be worth XF, rather than MS or AU money.

 

It's really a matter of rating and comparing the particular coin and its problems (as well as positive attributes) against other problem-free examples of the same and lower grades. And the more frequently such a coin is encountered and trades, the easier it is to determine its "net grade" value.

[sakorick]

Um, why did you send it to PCI?

 

I sent it to PCI because I suspected the coin had been cleaned. It's cheaper to find out you've been taken and at least it gets slabbed..... in this case, it would appear only the cheek was cleaned.....so I ask again, how much is the value damaged here. It books for 740. I can truthfully say it is at least MS62 looks closer to 64. I've compared it to two other NGC MS 64 1885CC's. Regards, Rick.

Under the circumstances, my guess is that it's worth approximately whatever an MS60 would sell for.

 

Mark and others, this leads me back to a question I have asked before but not really been able to obtain a good answer. As with this coin, if one has a coin that has been slabbed by say ANACS with MS 60 details because of cleaning, wiping etc. how does one go about determining the expected market value of this coin. I realize it all depends on the coin itself, it's rarity, demand etc. but as a general rule how does one deal with this. Or is this area of the hobby so subjective that is is totally dependent on the specific coin and potential buyers?

 

Rey

 

Hello Rey......Exactly! Thats why I came in trouble. I swore I would never purchase a coin on Ebay unless it was slabbed by PCGS or NGC.....then this one popped up. 100% feedback....looked good. I need to get my ducks in order for the Ebay/Paypal adjudication. In other words, I need some help. I emailed the seller and told him I would keep the coin if he sent me a check for $225. I paid 599 for it and consider this fair otherwise I demanded a full refund. Then it's up to Ebay/Paypal to adjudicate. Never again......never never never! Thanks for the help, and regards, Rick.

[ibyandsellsmith]

I'll throw in my two cents and say it's got to depend on the individual coin, if a coin is rare it probably wouldn't effect the grade much, common dates would be worth, maybe melt.

IMHO If it was a 1877 IHC it wouldn't matter. At least not to me. To be honest with you that 1885-CC is only hurt because of the holder it's in, if it was in an NCS holder it would go for MS-62 money. And again that's just my opinion.

[sakorick]

I'll throw in my two cents and say it's got to depend on the individual coin, if a coin is rare it probably wouldn't effect the grade much, common dates would be worth, maybe melt.

IMHO If it was a 1877 IHC it wouldn't matter. At least not to me. To be honest with you that 1885-CC is only hurt because of the holder it's in, if it was in an NCS holder it would go for MS-62 money. And again that's just my opinion.

 

You bet! And therein lies the problem.....NCS will not slab an altered coin! You get it back in the wrap you sent it in with a certificate that states the coin is not gradeable because it has been cleaned! This is a classic catch 22. I need to get my money back and I still need some help here. Thanks and regards, Rick.

[MarkFeld]

Um, why did you send it to PCI?

 

I sent it to PCI because I suspected the coin had been cleaned. It's cheaper to find out you've been taken and at least it gets slabbed..... in this case, it would appear only the cheek was cleaned.....so I ask again, how much is the value damaged here. It books for 740. I can truthfully say it is at least MS62 looks closer to 64. I've compared it to two other NGC MS 64 1885CC's. Regards, Rick.

Under the circumstances, my guess is that it's worth approximately whatever an MS60 would sell for.

 

Mark and others, this leads me back to a question I have asked before but not really been able to obtain a good answer. As with this coin, if one has a coin that has been slabbed by say ANACS with MS 60 details because of cleaning, wiping etc. how does one go about determining the expected market value of this coin. I realize it all depends on the coin itself, it's rarity, demand etc. but as a general rule how does one deal with this. Or is this area of the hobby so subjective that is is totally dependent on the specific coin and potential buyers?

 

Rey

 

Hello Rey......Exactly! Thats why I came in trouble. I swore I would never purchase a coin on Ebay unless it was slabbed by PCGS or NGC.....then this one popped up. 100% feedback....looked good. I need to get my ducks in order for the Ebay/Paypal adjudication. In other words, I need some help. I emailed the seller and told him I would keep the coin if he sent me a check for $225. I paid 599 for it and consider this fair otherwise I demanded a full refund. Then it's up to Ebay/Paypal to adjudicate. Never again......never never never! Thanks for the help, and regards, Rick.

That sounds extremely unfair to the seller unless he specifically guaranteed the coin would grade a particular grade AND it is still within the time of a stated return privilege. Unless the item is counterfeit, a seller can't fairly be bound by a grade assigned by another party, especially days or weeks after a buyer receives it. Would you have paid him extra money after the fact if the coin had graded MS66?

[sakorick]

There was no return priveledges......In small print he stated all sales final. The exact write up was this ......MS+++++ "this bright and beautiful 1885 Carson City is in original uncirculated condition". To me, original means not cleaned.....do you agree? Regards, Rick.

[MarkFeld]

There was no return priveledges......In small print he stated all sales final. The exact write up was this ......MS+++++ "this bright and beautiful 1885 Carson City is in original uncirculated condition". To me, original means not cleaned.....do you agree? Regards, Rick.

Rick, the word "original" with respect to coins is somewhat ambiguous and open to debate. Even if I agreed with you however, if the auction said "all sales final", unless the coin is counterfeit, it is yours. And even if you would have had a return privilege (such as 5 to 10 days after receipt of the item), it likely would have expired some time ago.

 

Hopefully this will be an inexpensive learning experience and reminder about buying uncertified coins, doing so from a seller who doesn't offer a return privilege and reading the entire auction description.

[MikeKing]

sakorick, Mark is correct in saying this is a learning experience. We all go through it.

Never buy a coin without a return privilege.

Read the posts in this forum every day if you can, and learn from them.

Maybe some people on this board can reccommend some good books that may help you to avoid mistakes.

If you send a coin in to be holdered, use ANACS, ICG, NGC or PCGS, and in my mind, better just using ANACS at this juncture since they will holder coins that are cleaned and state such on the holder, whereas, the others may just 'body bag' them i.e., send them back to you without being holdered.

[realone]

In my limited experience it seems like any time I want to get rid of a net graded coin I practically have to give it away, the net grading is like a death sentence, its like a giant red flag telling buyer's to beware. That is why I am now staying away from problem coins and/or these net holders, it ain't worth the hassle. I guess there is just no free lunch and you get what you pay for. spend more and you will end up getting a coin that not only you would be more happy with but that you will end up keeping, isn't that what it is all about in the end.

[michael]

There was no return priveledges......In small print he stated all sales final. The exact write up was this ......MS+++++ "this bright and beautiful 1885 Carson City is in original uncirculated condition". To me, original means not cleaned.....do you agree? Regards, Rick.

Rick, the word "original" with respect to coins is somewhat ambiguous and open to debate. Even if I agreed with you however, if the auction said "all sales final", unless the coin is counterfeit, it is yours. And even if you would have had a return privilege (such as 5 to 10 days after receipt of the item), it likely would have expired some time ago.

 

Hopefully this will be an inexpensive learning experience and reminder about buying uncertified coins, doing so from a seller who doesn't offer a return privilege and reading the entire auction description.

 

(thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u

[jman425]

You may have a hard time arguing the definition of "original".

I just won a dispute on Paypal, forcing a buyer to refund me on an auction that was "all sales final". His description of the item (brilliant uncirculated), was misleading and fraudulent in the first place, making it in violation of ebay policy and the ANA code of conduct.

The laws of ebay outranks any sellers' policies.

[James_OldeTowne]

The detriment of a wipe may have from little impact to major impact. Yesterday, I cataloged an 1879 Seated Liberty quarter in a PCGS MS-64 holder, and it is wiped across the obverse. However, the effect is not devastating in this case. It probably grades MS-67 PL without the wipe! Therefore, in PCGS' opinion, the impact was three points.

[BillJones]

Mark and others, this leads me back to a question I have asked before but not really been able to obtain a good answer. As with this coin, if one has a coin that has been slabbed by say ANACS with MS 60 details because of cleaning, wiping etc. how does one go about determining the expected market value of this coin. I realize it all depends on the coin itself, it's rarity, demand etc. but as a general rule how does one deal with this. Or is this area of the hobby so subjective that is is totally dependent on the specific coin and potential buyers?

 

The 1885-CC silver dollar is a very special case. There is very little price spread between the low Mint State grades and the EF and AU grades. The reason is that the 1885-CC is very scarce in the ciruclated grades. There are just very few coins out there for collectors to buy. For that reason the prices do not go down very much in the circulated grades.

 

This coin is probably worth EF to AU money. The notation on the holder will not help you to sell this coin. The fact that it is a PCI with a noted problem make it harder to sell IMO.