Is less TPG competition a good thing or a bad thing for numismatics?

[MikeInFL]

According to the 12/24 Coin World, PCI is going out of business.

 

So now there's less competition in the TPG market.

 

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

 

Considering PCI's market segment (and the way in which PCI coins are used in the market), is the exit of a TPG from the market better or worse for numismatics?

 

Frankly, I see both sides of this issue and can't decide -- thus the question.

 

Thoughts?

[Arizonadesertrat]

PCI hasn't been a serious competitor where PCGS and NGC are concerned. At best, I would rank PCI #4, and would not bother to give a PCI-slabbed coin a second look (because I collect pre-1921 coins).

[Arizonadesertrat]

PCI hasn't been a serious competitor where PCGS and NGC are concerned. At best, I would rank PCI #4, and would not bother to give a PCI-slabbed coin a second look (because I collect pre-1921 coins).

[gmarguli]

I cannot see this having any affect on the market - for better or worse. I don't believe that it was real competition for legitimate services.

 

PCI was a decent service, but then killed itself after it was sold and started giving out liberal grades. Had they not done this, they'd probably not be going out of business. Were PCGS or NGC to go out of business, then that could have a negative affect on the market. The market could lose either ICG or ANACS without much care. As for the loser TPG, no one cares and it is meaningless.

 

 

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

In some ways, less competition would be good:

 

I think there'd be less grade inflation without both PCGS and NGC to play off of each other. For instance, I doubt an 1804 $1 with an obvious spot removed [via scratching no less!] would have inflated in grade multiple times without the pressure of wanting to have the coin out of the competitor's holder.

[James_OldeTowne]

I don't see PCI as real competition for NGC, PCGS, et. al. In this case, I think it's a benefit for PCI to exit the stage, as their grading has been abysmal for years. In general, though, more competition is a good thing. I would love to see a challenger to the big four (other than something like the CAC).

[Dcoin]

One less MS70 slabber? good riddance.

 

Less competition from third world TPG's should have no negative effects on the market. Now if one of the top tier TPG's (NGC, PCGS, ICG) went under, then I think the repercussions would be felt throughout the hobby.

 

[PerryHall]

One less MS70 slabber? good riddance.

 

Less competition from third world TPG's should have no negative effects on the market. Now if one of the top tier TPG's (NGC, PCGS, ICG) went under, then I think the repercussions would be felt throughout the hobby.

 

Where's ANACS in your lineup? I would put them ahead of ICG.

[DirtyGoldMan]

nu·mis·mat·ics (nōō'mĭz-māt'ĭks, -mĭs-, nyōō'-) Pronunciation Key

n. (used with a sing. verb) The study or collection of money, coins, and often medals.

 

TPGs have nothing to do with numismatics, but everything to do with the coin business. Sorry for playing semantics.

 

The loss of all but the top four would have no impact on what or how I, along with most people who visit coin message boards, collect and frankly would be welcomed by most. The loss of #4 would probably impact very few, certainly not me. There must be at least two, however, to give legitimacy to the concept. Without competition to keep the one honest, especially in a business rife with shenanigans like coins is, there must be at least two.

[michael]

zero, none, nada.............no investor pricing services would be the best of all

 

they have made many millionaries off of the ignorance, laziness, greed, and ego of many coin (not collector) buyers

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jesbroken]

I would not care if any non-top four TPG's or all went out of business-kind of like cleansing the wound of parasites. I would not really care if ICG went out of business as I would see no effects from this on the market. In fact, I have always taken losses on every ICG coin I have owned-nobody seems to want them. I've never lost on ANACS, NGC or PCGS coins.

[123cents]

I for one will miss PCI. Yes, a lot of their coins were not properly graded but others were. I have had several PCI coins cross to ANACS and a few to NGC. It was fun to try to buy the coin and not the holder.

[okbustchaser]

Before I agreed that competition between TPGs was good for numismatics I would first have to believe that the TPGs IN GENERAL were good for numismatics. I don't.

 

Good for buying and selling coins? Good for creating ever higher and higher prices to match higher and higher grades on the same coin? Sure. But, none of that has anything at all to do with numismatics--only with marketing.

[Doogy]

I would not care if any non-top four TPG's or all went out of business-kind of like cleansing the wound of parasites. I would not really care if ICG went out of business as I would see no effects from this on the market. In fact, I have always taken losses on every ICG coin I have owned-nobody seems to want them. I've never lost on ANACS, NGC or PCGS coins.

 

I beg to differ, the 'Big 4' all have established their niche:

 

PCGS and NGC are often seen as the 'Big 2' in US coins

 

NGC has created a very nice and solid niche for darkside coinage

 

ANACS has some nice attributions, and they grade problem coins (which is a good sized market)

 

ICG is the world leader in the very difficult field of authenticating and grading ancients, which has emerged as a huge field in numismatics this last decade or so.

 

in summary, I feel that there is a solid "need" for all of the ones listed above; it just depends on what you collect.

 

 

[DC Dawg]

I would not care if any non-top four TPG's or all went out of business-kind of like cleansing the wound of parasites. I would not really care if ICG went out of business as I would see no effects from this on the market. In fact, I have always taken losses on every ICG coin I have owned-nobody seems to want them. I've never lost on ANACS, NGC or PCGS coins.

Jeez... youse guys are cruel!!

 

I have mixed feelings about the TPGs, sort of like watching my ex-mother-in-law driving off the cliff in my new Mercedes! But seriously, there is a need for the authentication services they provide. And there is a need to have a service that can identify improperly cleaned coins. And there is a need to determine the exact level of preservation of a coin. But I think that the opinion on level of preservation is a problem because of the lack of standards.

 

I know we've had this discussion before, but if the standards can be fixed, maybe it would be a more level playing field.

 

Scott

[Conder101]

The only thing that strikes me is that this is the end of one of the old timers. PCI has been around longer than anyone else except for ANACS and ACG, and as a slabbing service longer than anyone except ACG. (OK, they have been through three different owners during that period.)

 

Now I've got to find one of their recent signature series slabs before they all disappear.

[gmarguli]

According to the 12/24 Coin World, PCI is going out of business.

 

So now there's less competition in the TPG market.

 

We may all be mistaken on this. PCI may be for sale, but may not be going out of business, just a new owner.

[BillJones]

According to the 12/24 Coin World, PCI is going out of business.

 

So now there's less competition in the TPG market.

 

We may all be mistaken on this. PCI may be for sale, but may not be going out of business, just a new owner.

 

A new owner for PCI? How many owners is that in the past five years? The company has had the same name for a while, but the faces behind it have been many with inconsistent service. If PCI disappears from the market, few people are really going to miss it.

 

I don't see how anyone could say that less competition in the form of a CREDIBLE third party grading service is better for the hobby. I’ve had hopes for years that a company like ICG would put some pressure on the big two to maintain their standards. Sadly that has not happened. After a promising start, ICG, with an “assist” from some large coin dealers who wanted to see the company fail, fell back into the also ran category.

 

I guess the CAC Kool Aid drinkers would argue that CAC is the answer. Sadly CAC is not the answer because the company is not a real grading service. It is only a grading review service that puts its stamp approval on holders. CAC does not stick its neck out and provide grade or authenticity guarantees. If CAC succeeds, its effect will be discredit NGC and PCGS graded coins that don’t carry their seal of approval. In the worst case scenario all certified coins would have to be sent to PCGS or NGC for a grade and authentication and then sent to CAC to “insure” that PCGS or NGC got it “right.” The scenario stinks.

[jesbroken]

Doogy

I wrote that if any NON Top four TPG's went out of business.....blahblahblah--not the top four. I have no problem with ANACS, NGC or PCGS only with the one that I have had the misfortune to own at various times-ICG. This is just from my perspective.

[CHABSENTIA]

Your last paragraph says it all. Aside from the possible economic scenarios I mentioned earlier thsi is another area that should be considered.

 

I have tried to get around this in several different ways by mentioning different scenarios because of JA being the founder of CAC.

 

The last I mentioned was a possibilty that people would flock to ANACS because they felt that PCGS and NGC were undergrading because ot it.

 

I do not think that it is any coincidence that a person who was a major player in both PCGS and NGC would start a service that put stickers on only those two.I have already mentioned the possibilities because of it and you have mentioned the coup de grace so to speak of another.

 

As mentioned earlier , CAC does not guarantee anything. If it is discovered later that CAC has refused to sticker a coin that was slabbed during the tenure of JA at that TPG there will be no recourse with CAC.

 

If there is a refusal of CAC to sticker then the holder of that coin will still have to go to the TPG that slabbed the coin and be subject to the guidelines of their guarantee. So what you have here is CAC which offers no guarantee etc stickering or refusing to sticker a coin that offers a guarantee.

 

Another poster gave examples of a 14% increase in price between CAC stickerd and non stickered CAC coins. It has been discussed earlier about the 10% increase in CAC stickered coins because of the extra added fees and hti is not counting various shipping and handling costs so it is already being seen.

[BillJones]

The shipping and handling costs of dealing with CAC are significant. If you have not sent a coin via registered mail recently, you are in for a shock. Plan on spending at more than $15.00 to mail and insure a coin that has a value from $1,500 to $2,000. In addition you have the expense of the box plus a trip to the post office. AND of course CAC will charge you pretty much the same fee to send the coin back to you.

 

AND there is the implicit cost that the post office could lose your coin during one of its two trips during the CAC process. You would get some financial compensation, but as any collector will tell you, the difficulty and expense in duplicating some coins more than offsets whatever the insurance settlement might be.

 

[goldrarities.com-migration]

The shipping and handling costs of dealing with CAC are significant. If you have not sent a coin via registered mail recently, you are in for a shock. Plan on spending at more than $15.00 to mail and insure a coin that has a value from $1,500 to $2,000. In addition you have the expense of the box plus a trip to the post office. AND of course CAC will charge you pretty much the same fee to send the coin back to you.

 

AND there is the implicit cost that the post office could lose your coin during one of its two trips during the CAC process. You would get some financial compensation, but as any collector will tell you, the difficulty and expense in duplicating some coins more than offsets whatever the insurance settlement might be.

 

 

 

 

So sending coins to CAC is risky by registered mail through the post office but coins you may send to clients are safe? Your kidding right? Sending coins to CAC are the only ones that risk being lost? Registered insured mail is one of the safest ways to send coins anywhere.Frankly we use express mail and insure all our clients coins to and from the customer and to and from CAC via private insurance and clients coins are insured at full value, whatever that may be. Oh, and express mail boxes are free as are the labels. Of course one way to avoid all of your pitfalls is to buy coins that are already stickered wich is exactly what alot of people are doing now.

[BillJones]

Of course one way to avoid all of your pitfalls is to buy coins that are already stickered wich is exactly what alot of people are doing now.

 

Yea, that's right. Be a lemming and cave in to CAC. Then trolls like you would be happy.

 

I don't know why you keep arguing your point here. Everybody knows that you and couple of others have a financial interest in the success of CAC. You don’t give rat’s tail about protecting the financial interests of collectors. You are out to make improve you bottom line just like the rest of dealers who are pushing this thing.

 

Why don’t you go peddle your wares to a more receptive audience? Most of us don’t want to have to have all of our coins graded yet again after we paid for the service the first time.

 

Edited to say, Yes, there have been important coins that have been lost in the mail. For example of the 1873 double engraved LIBERTY Indian cent that is pictured on the front of Rick Snow's book was lost in the mail. It was viewed as the finest known example when it disappeared.

 

And most people know that one of the reasons why NGC moved to Florida was that they were having trouble with the post office in New Jersey.

 

So, yes the risk of loss is small, but it's there. And why take the risk because of CAC?

 

[carson city]

IMO more competition is always better. However, in the case of CAC they appear to be a Wannabe TPG service without paying their dues and without a major financial comittment re NGC & PCGS. CAC appears to want to piggy-back on the good name and reputation of NGC & PCGS not the other TPG services.

 

It's always easy for those (CAC) parties to denegrate the original work of NGC & PCGS. But too difficult, apparently for them to compete with NGC & PCGS on a level field !

[MikeInFL]

Bill/CC/GR.C, While I appreciate the discussion of the topic and respect everyone's right to speak as they see fit, I did not intend for this thread to turn into another CAC thread. Therefore, I would appreciate it if you would remain focused rather than beat this already-dead horse. Thank you for your consideration...MIke

[MikeInFL]

According to the 12/24 Coin World, PCI is going out of business.

 

So now there's less competition in the TPG market.

 

We may all be mistaken on this. PCI may be for sale, but may not be going out of business, just a new owner.

 

It seems as if Greg may be correct....

 

http://gravittauction.com/auction_detail.php?ID=375763

[CHABSENTIA]

I didn't include the shipping costs because the Prices without them are ridiculous to me. I live in Northern Florida and NGC is in Florida and South of me.

 

I sent some coins in for grading to NGC and the cost just from NGC back to me was $18.75..I sent them insured so it is a little cheaper sending them from the Post Office.So lets say $30.00.

 

You are correct .So lets say I had to spend another $30.00 to ship to CAC. We are now talking about $60.00 just for shippng at a minimum.Even with $1500.00 worth of coins then you are talking just 2 % for shipping.

[CHABSENTIA]

I read a few months ago in Coin World that a Dealer received a shipment of Coins and that some were missing.It might not happen frequently but it does happen.It is also obvious that these coins were stolen enroute and then there are some that are lost although again on an unfrequent basis.It is just like the odds of a deadly disease. If the Odds are 2 million to one that you will receive it but then get it then the odds might as well be 100% for that person.

 

The Fact still remains that there is an extra cost. In my example it was a minimum of 2% and I live close to NGC in Sarasota so for others it will be more.

 

 

The bad part is that you have CAC who is only stickering Coins slabbed by NGC and PCGS.It should be obvious that CAC is in a positon to try and denigrate PCGS and NGC. The problem here is that if CAC refuses to sticker a coin then one still has to go through the TPG concerned for their guarantee so you have CAC in the Business to solidify a slabbed coin but who does not want to assume any Liability..So what happens when the TPG assures the validity of a grade and points out mistakes that they think CAC has made under the TPG Guidelines?Again CAC assumes no Liability for this.They have their fee and move on.

 

I would be interested to know what a Buyer would be told that was looking at a coin in a Dealers shop that known only to the Dealer has been refused a Sticker by CAC What would they tell the Buyer when asked if it had ever been submitted for a sticker to CAC?

 

My understanding is that if I am not a member of the Collectors Society and not a Dealer that I can go to a Dealer if they are affialiated with a particular TPG and submit coin/s through them. Are dealers going to do this with CAC and eat the cost if the coin is refused a sticker?

[RWB]

Meaningful, free market competition usually benefits the consumer with better quality at lower prices and improved responsiveness. However, pseudo-competitive situations involving necessities, such as electric power “deregulation,” or petroleum (gasoline) products, provide little real consumer benefit and may be harmful (as in the California electricity scam).

[IGWT]

A lack of competition sometimes produces the best product. Major League Baseball is a great example of how controlling the ability to compete (say, with salary caps, revenue sharing, and free agency) produces a better product. The "product" of baseball is exciting games and close pennant races that hold fans' interest. Baseball fans would lose interest over time -- and baseball would lose overall revenue -- if one team were to become so dominant that other teams stood little chance of winning. We want all teams to have a shot on opening day; and, to make that happen, we need to handicap the large markets and to assist the small markets. Minimizing competition off the field maximizes competition on the field.

 

For similar reasons, less competition among TPGs could be a good thing. The implementation of and adherence to a uniform grading standard would likely benefit the hobby overall. The competition among TPGs -- which is a matter of market share and money -- drives them to modify so-called standards over time and to create products like the First Strike Nonsense. Minimizing competition among TPGs, or keeping the number of competitors low, could benefit the hobby if we're truly interested in consistent grading and stability in the marketplace.