Looking for Mr GoodRip

[Houston Investor]

Recently, while looking over a box of coins in a coin shop while on an out of town business trip, the operators, myself, and some other customers had a conversation over the subject of rips. The stories were not only interesting but shocking as to the tactics used. A rip is where an individual buys really low or sells really high. Years ago I was in a coin club where a dealer had the nickname "Rip." I can remember a dealer at a nearby table at a show I was set up at during this period telling some customers who seemed to have some really nice Barbers to sell "I don't have any interest in your Barbers, but if you take it over there to ole Rip he can quote his best offer." They then went over to Rip's table. Later I saw him buying the whole lot. Rip was not someone who would consult price guides, fumbling thru a greysheet to buy coins. He would look at the coins expertly and then simply make an offer. It might be based on what the coins were "trading for" per piece or some quantity times bullion. Either way he would make the offer, and then lay the money out on the table in an almost hypnotic, slow manner. If the guy's wife was with him, he would grin at her and say softly "you can really do some shopping with that." He certainly had mastered the art of showing them the green.

 

I know of a collector who visits coin shops regularly to look for underpriced world coins he can purchase - is that looking for a rip or seeking the thrill of the hunt? Please understand I do not advocate dishonesty in numismatics as my goal is ethical operation and repeat business with customers and clients. Frankly, the really big flim flam artists in Numismatics practice it in a more subtle way. Sort of like the credit card companies and their high rates and fees, perfectly legal. Have you seen any examples lately? It could be a conflict of interest or manipulation of data. Lets discuss.

 

Another time, at a show in Cali, I was having coffee with a currency dealer I knew from here in Houston. He told me of a strong willed cali gal who come up to his table with her deceased Dad's currency collection and said "I will not take anything less than the prices in this book." She had the Krause Std Catalog of US Paper Money. He almost waved her off as a nut but when he saw it was the 1968 Catalog he went along and bought it all and even threw in an extra $150 "to make this fair" for "market appreciation." Later when he looked up the pieces in the current catalog and greensheet he could not believe how cheap he had purchased it as prices had increased into the stratosphere since then.

[MunkyMan95]

Isn't that the definition of cherrypicking?

[ibyandsellsmith]

Isn't that the definition of cherrypicking?

Well if they have a price on it and you pay it, it's not criminal. If somebody doesn't no what they got and you fell to mention it, then shame on you.

[cpm9ball]

The way I see it, if a dealer has an item that is underpriced or unattributed, it is his fault. After all, shouldn't you try to learn everything you can about the career path you've chosen? If that same dealer has such an item as I mentioned, and it is clearly marked with a price, but the dealer is willing to accept a lower offer, why should any buyer be labeled underhanded just because they knew something that the dealer should have known.

 

I've had occasions where an acquaintance has asked my opinion about the value of a coin, and I am always very honest about it. Even though it may be a coin that I want or know I could flip for a profit, it just isn't in my nature to take advantage of someone who is not familiar with numismatics, even though I may only know them casually.

 

Chris

[Houston Investor]

I would tend to agree with you CPM as dealers should know something about what they are selling. In many instances a dealer gives a coin or banknote away simply because he failed to analyze what he had. It happens all the time, especially with currency like National Banknotes.

 

 

[kryptonitecomics]

I agree with the others......I have bought coins for what I considered to be a steal of a price from dealers at shows....not unatributed rarities but perhaps a coin with amazing color for little to know premium......but I don't ever rememberr purchasing a coin from an average jo for less than fair market value.....

 

unless you count the rolls of halves I have bought from the bank....chock full of silver .....still paid face for them (thumbs u

[MikeInFL]

I have never, and I hope to never, rip anyone. There are better ways to profit than taking advantage of others, and it matters not which side of the deal you're on.

[CHABSENTIA]

I am still upset about the recent situation I had on EBay.I needed a certain date Morgan to fill a slot on my one per annum.The coin was slabbed by NGC. It was also a PL. I don't have any PLS. It was a BIN and I looked up the Numismedia price.

 

This coin had been sitting there for a few days. The BIN price was $185.00.

 

The Numismedia price is $300.00 I always try to get MS65 unless it is really out of my reach in Price and this was a MS64 PL.

 

I purchased the coin and the next day when I go to pay for it I receive a message to hold off on the payment and that the coin has either been misplaced,lost or stolen.

 

The price for a MS64 non PL is about $175.00.All of his other coins are priced pretty much in line with the Numismedia price except for this one and it is lost stolen or misplaced?

 

It could have happened but it is a really big coincidence and I will always wonder whether or not the guy made a mistake and then decided to withdraw the coin.

 

I will just not purchase any coins from him in the future.

[cpm9ball]

I am still upset about the recent situation I had on EBay.I needed a certain date Morgan to fill a slot on my one per annum.The coin was slabbed by NGC. It was also a PL. I don't have any PLS. It was a BIN and I looked up the Numismedia price.

 

This coin had been sitting there for a few days. The BIN price was $185.00.

 

The Numismedia price is $300.00 I always try to get MS65 unless it is really out of my reach in Price and this was a MS64 PL.

 

I purchased the coin and the next day when I go to pay for it I receive a message to hold off on the payment and that the coin has either been misplaced,lost or stolen.

 

The price for a MS64 non PL is about $175.00.All of his other coins are priced pretty much in line with the Numismedia price except for this one and it is lost stolen or misplaced?

 

It could have happened but it is a really big coincidence and I will always wonder whether or not the guy made a mistake and then decided to withdraw the coin.

 

I will just not purchase any coins from him in the future.

 

I don't know! I think Numismedia prices are "all out of whack" when it comes to Morgans. Besides, just because you referred to Numismedia, doesn't mean that the seller did. No offense to you, but for all you know, he may have been referring to Greysheet. By the way, what was the year/mm? Was it slabbed or was it raw? How good were the photos?

 

Chris

[Houston Investor]

So your point on not getting that morgan is? You did not get the rip you thought you had? Perhaps he realized he was giving it away or the ebay bidding was not what he expected. Frankly he probably did not have the coin like he said.

 

Due to the slow economy ebay bidding has been awfully slow lately for many in the coin business. We could be headed for a recession \ depression. A lot of ebay coin sellers have told me sales have been absolutely horrible this year. I plan to gear up my operation more towards the making money by buying it right part of the equation. Sometime ago, a guy who runs a shop in the Phoenix area told me that "the really cool players in this business sit on their cash until the right deal comes along. Otherwise, they are simply acting like collectors or worse investors. Its ok to try to be building inventory, but you reach a point where you have enough to fill up your cases (and it has to start standing on its own merits) and then your going to need to really start trying to buy it right. Without this shop I would not get a fraction of the great deals that walk in here. Bullion and Bid prices don't always go up. Retail buyers with money will come and go. Coins aren't like food or lodging that people have to have. A good dealer takes control of the buying part so he can make money buying it right and then flipping the material at bid if he needs to." The conversation then turned to some of the people coming in his shop to sell - it was fascinating what some of them had offered. I then bought the deal of slabbed commems he had offered me on the phone at bid. Some of these were for my store on the Bay, others for some client want lists, and a couple for my Texas collection (I have been hoarding the 1938 issues). Obviusly, at some point in time, a nice collection of commems had walked into his shop. After I paid him, he laughed and said "well if you don't get the rip, at least try to catch the flip." That night at home after returning to Houston, I looked at those coins enjoying their nice luster along with a good brew.

[carson city]

Moral of the story: One's man's Rip is another man's Hunt !

[rons]

So Parker, what does "buying it right" mean to you? Is it a percentage below book or melt or do you use a different set of criteria? Thanks for the insight.

[Houston Investor]

So Parker, what does "buying it right" mean to you? Is it a percentage below book or melt or do you use a different set of criteria? Thanks for the insight.

 

"Buying it Right" is a term dealers in the business use. It can mean different things to different dealers. Typically it means buying a coin or banknote offered to you at a show or in your shop cheap enough you can wholesale it and still make money. I am not trying to imply someone do anything unethical here. Shops have lots of overhead and so does taking a table at a show especially if it involves travel like airfare, rental car, and hotel. So if you buy too many coins, paying too much for them, you may be buried in inventory you may have to sell at a loss to move it and get cash flow. A shop I do a lot of business with both buying and selling pays $5 plus melt on bullion gold, slabbed or raw and blue sheet on certified coins. These guys then turn around and sell the stuff in their ebay store or over the counter retail. They have a lot of overhead and the deal is fair enough from my perspective as I myself have sold material to them at these prices. Only you can decide what to offer for coins brought to you for blowout.

 

A lot of world coin dealers tell me they like to pay 60% of what they think can sell a coin for. So does the guy that runs the model train store where I do business for my model railroad hobby and seeing how he is buried in a lot of that stuff (and how long a lot of it has been there) 60% looks generous. So there's your rule of thumb.

 

My problem has been if I am too passionate about owning a particular big ticket coin and pay too much, I suffer later.

[rons]

Thanks, that helps me understand the concept a lot better:)

[Houston Investor]

So Parker, what does "buying it right" mean to you? Is it a percentage below book or melt or do you use a different set of criteria? Thanks for the insight.

 

Sometimes I will simply "buy it right" from a coin shop like this one I recently picked up at $6 over melt (current NGC Pop 52 in MS, 19 in MS 66, and 13 higher). Not necessarily a rip, but simply a nice coin at a good price: