The CAC sticker is meaningless without knowing the other side of the equation.

[IGWT]

The other side being the sight-unseen bidding levels for stickered coins by dealers who participate in the trading network. Remember, that's the part of the program where CAC is supposed to put its money where its stickers are. Can anybody explain how the network will work and how CAC envisions that it will benefit collectors who own stickered coins?

 

There is a stickered PCGS 64 1924-S buffalo that's currently under discussion in another thread. I know what Albanese Rare Coins (no relation to John Albanese or his companies) is asking for the coin, and we even have some research on hand that shows some market history of this coin. But what is the current bid on the CAC dealer network?

 

Edited to correct reference to wrong coin.

[MarkFeld]

The other side being the sight-unseen bidding levels for stickered coins by dealers who participate in the trading network. Remember, that's the part of the program where CAC is supposed to put its money where its stickers are. Can anybody explain how the network will work and how CAC envisions that it will benefit collectors who own stickered coins?

 

There is a stickered PCGS 64 3-legged buffalo that's currently under discussion in another thread. I know what Albanese Rare Coins (no relation to John Albanese or his companies) is asking for the coin, and we even have some research on hand that shows some market history of this coin. But what is the current bid on the CAC dealer network?

There will be a trading network with sight-unseen bids posted. I don't know when it will be up and running or precisely how it will function. I could make up a bunch of stuff and argue with people about it before it's underway, but....

 

I thought the MS64 Buffalo nickel being discussed with respect to CAC was/is a 1924-S, not a 3 legged example.

[IGWT]

I thought the MS64 Buffalo nickel being discussed with respect to CAC was/is a 1924-S, not a 3 legged example.

 

You're right. I'll go fix that. In the meanwhile, feel free to make some stuff up about the network and its bids.

[MarkFeld]

I thought the MS64 Buffalo nickel being discussed with respect to CAC was/is a 1924-S, not a 3 legged example.

 

You're right. I'll go fix that. In the meanwhile, feel free to make some stuff up about the network and it's bids.

well, since you asked, I have heard rumors that there will be very high sight unseen bids for MS63 and better examples of the infamous 1924-S 3 legged nickel.

 

[IGWT]

Don't be taking this thread off topic. Show me the money!

 

And, if you visit ATS, you'll know why I had a 3-legger on my mind when I started this thread.

[BillJones]

There are certain dealers from whom I would buy or bid on coins sight unseen. I’ve done it many times and my retention rate (coin or token not returned) has been something like 99%.

 

I have more faith in these dealers and the relationships that I have them than in CAC. I’ve heard said that there are some CAC coins that would not please some tastes so far as toning goes. I’ll leave it at that.

 

[TomB]

I find this to be a troubling aspect of the CAC. I may not be clear on the explanation, so please stay with me on this part. To me, the sight-unseen market for these CAC-stickered coins would seem to be, for the most part, non-existant or, at least, not what one would want to engage in as a seller. What I am getting at is that the sight-unseen levels will likely be lower than Greysheet bid levels for each issue while still being higher than Bluesheet levels. For some coins Bluesheet can be useful since it goes into grading areas that the Greysheet does not tread, but for many issues the Bluesheet might be thought of as a level where truly low-end, difficult to move or overgraded coins might be priced. Greysheet, on the other hand, is dedicated to pricing for accurately graded coinage whether it is raw or slabbed. Perhaps a synonymous term for "accurately graded" coinage would be "solid for the grade" coinage. However, the CAC has redefined the term "premium quality" to use in-house to mean "solid for the grade", which therefore means that the CAC will sticker coins that meet or exceed Greysheet standards.

 

What does all this mean? Well, it might mean that the CAC will buy CAC-stickered coins below Greysheet levels even though those coins meet fully the current leading grading standard and might be better priced at Greysheet levels. I guess that if one had a premium quality aka solid for the grade aka accurately graded coin that was difficult to move because of the market niche then the CAC network would come in handy provided that CAC members would buy the coin. Since I do not know if CAC members are required to post bids on issues that have a CAC-stickered population and I do not know if those members are required to buy those coins that are produced at their bid levels, I cannot tell you if the CAC sight-unseen system is worth anything. Alternatively, selling a CAC-stickered coin within the CAC sight-unseen system for a relatively liquid or easy to sell coin would seem to be folly if one did not need the money immediately and if the CAC sight-unseen system were producing dealer bids lower than Greysheet.

 

The problems that I have with the CAC are at least four and these are the lack of information as to the workings of the sight-unseen CAC dealer network, the lack of published price levels associated with the sight-unseen CAC dealer network, the lack of communication of pertinant facts regarding the CAC from the CAC itself and the unilateral changing of accepted numismatic terminology to include average coins into the premium quality fold. I had previously held very high hopes for the CAC, but at this time will reserve judgment until the dust settles.

[MarkFeld]

What I am getting at is that the sight-unseen levels will likely be lower than Greysheet bid levels for each issue while still being higher than Bluesheet levels.

Tom, I don't claim to know if that will end up being correct or not, but what do you base that on? Thanks

 

I expect that your questions about the bids, trading, etc. will be answered once the exchange is up and running.

[TomB]

I base that upon the fact that Greysheet is for sight-seen trades that can be declined once the coin is viewed in-hand whereas the CAC system is a sight-unseen system, which infers that the coin is sold without the right of return once the coin in question is sent at the CAC bid level. Therefore, most dealers would likely limit their exposure on sight-unseen transactions by issuing a lower bid price in these instances. Since the CAC has offered no public explanation for some of the facets of the business, we in the hobby-industry who are being asked to support the venture must interpret the CAC business plan using our experience in the hobby-industry.

 

In truth, I would be delighted if you could show me where I am wrong in this case and would be happy to have you link the relevant CAC information issued from the CAC that indicates I am wrong. Absent that, everyone in the hobby-industry is left to guess as to how the CAC will run its business.

[MarkFeld]

I base that upon the fact that Greysheet is for sight-seen trades that can be declined once the coin is viewed in-hand whereas the CAC system is a sight-unseen system, which infers that the coin is sold without the right of return once the coin in question is sent at the CAC bid level. Therefore, most dealers would likely limit their exposure on sight-unseen transactions by issuing a lower bid price in these instances. Since the CAC has offered no public explanation for some of the facets of the business, we in the hobby-industry who are being asked to support the venture must interpret the CAC business plan using our experience in the hobby-industry.

 

In truth, I would be delighted if you could show me where I am wrong in this case and would be happy to have you link the relevant CAC information issued from the CAC that indicates I am wrong. Absent that, everyone in the hobby-industry is left to guess as to how the CAC will run its business.

Tom, regardless of how it turns out, that sounds like well reasoned thinking to me. As I mentioned, I don't know how or when the bidding will evolve, though I think the eventual bidding levels will be largely dependent upon the average quality and appeal of CAC coins for the various grades. And since this is just in its initial stages, that remains to be determined and seen.

 

Thanks.

[IGWT]

As I mentioned, I don't know how or when the bidding will evolve, though I think the eventual bidding levels will be largely dependent upon the average quality and appeal of CAC coins for the various grades. And since this is just in its initial stages, that remains to be determined and seen.

 

In the meanwhile, there are a few dealers pumping CAC-stickered coins on their websites and collectors hawking CAC-stickered coins on eBay, implying premium quality (and enhanced value) without any express statement of grading standards or dealers' bids backing it all up.

 

And, frankly, I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with the idea of a few market makers cooperating to establish an exchange if the intent or result is the setting of prices. Is the delay caused by participating dealers/CAC buying, stickering, and stocking coins for marketing at the same time that the bid information is published?

[MarkFeld]

As I mentioned, I don't know how or when the bidding will evolve, though I think the eventual bidding levels will be largely dependent upon the average quality and appeal of CAC coins for the various grades. And since this is just in its initial stages, that remains to be determined and seen.

 

In the meanwhile, there are dealers pumping CAC-stickered coins on their websites and collectors hawking CAC-stickered coins on eBay, implying premium quality (and enhanced value) without any express statement of grading standards or dealers' bids backing it all up.

They can't honestly include specific information regarding dealers' bids, since the exchange isn't operational yet. I understand your point though.

 

Here is my website listing for the one CAC coin I have in inventory (actually, it has been sold and will be coming down from my website):

 

"1942 Mercury Dime PCGS PR67 (CAC approved) $535

Brilliant, deeply mirrored and untoned."

 

I paid $465 for it, having recently acquired a non-CAC example which I didn't like as much, for $450. I don't believe that I had to pay extra for the sticker in this case, nor am I charging extra for it. I expect that other coins/types/grades will command premiums of varying amounts.

[IGWT]

Sorry, Mark. I edited my post while you were responding to it. And, FWIW, the concern expressed in the last sentence wasn't pulled from thin air. It was suggested -- although expressed more as speculation than as a concern -- by a prominent dealer ATS.

[MarkFeld]

As I mentioned, I don't know how or when the bidding will evolve, though I think the eventual bidding levels will be largely dependent upon the average quality and appeal of CAC coins for the various grades. And since this is just in its initial stages, that remains to be determined and seen.

 

In the meanwhile, there are a few dealers pumping CAC-stickered coins on their websites and collectors hawking CAC-stickered coins on eBay, implying premium quality (and enhanced value) without any express statement of grading standards or dealers' bids backing it all up.

 

And, frankly, I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with the idea of a few market makers cooperating to establish an exchange if the intent or result is the setting of prices. Is the delay caused by participating dealers/CAC buying, stickering, and stocking coins for marketing at the same time that the bid information is published?

In large part I'm only speculating here.....

 

I would think that the bids will emerge AFTER there are a decent number of CAC coins on the market. Bidders presumably will want to have an idea as to what they can/should expect out of the quality of CAC coins. That requires seeing a good number of them.

 

Participating dealers don't sticker coins - CAC does that. The dealers will, however, buy and sell stickered coins and submit coins for stickering.

 

I'm curious, do you and others have similar concerns about the Certified Coin Exchange where dealers post sight unseen and/or sight seen bids and asks for PCGS and NGC coins?

[IGWT]

Participating dealers don't sticker coins - CAC does that.

 

Yes. Sorry for that ambiguity in my post. I was referring to participating dealers having coins stickered by CAC, not to dealers stickering coins themselves.

 

I'm curious, do you and others have similar concerns about the Certified Coin Exchange where dealers post sight unseen and/or sight seen bids and asks for PCGS and NGC coins?

 

I don't think you read the part of the sentence by which I qualified the concern: " . . . if the intent or result is the setting of prices." I don't think CCE has that intent; and, even if it did, I don't believe that it has had that result. CAC wouldn't be necessary otherwise. Keep in mind that at least some who are familiar with and behind the formation of CAC have expressed concern that the prices of premium coins (whatever that means) have been suppressed. I don't think there'd be any denial that the hope is for the better coins to increase in value.

[MarkFeld]

Participating dealers don't sticker coins - CAC does that.

 

Yes. Sorry for that ambiguity in my post. I was referring to participating dealers having coins stickered by CAC, not to dealers stickering coins themselves.

 

I'm curious, do you and others have similar concerns about the Certified Coin Exchange where dealers post sight unseen and/or sight seen bids and asks for PCGS and NGC coins?

 

I don't think you read the part of the sentence by which I qualified the concern: " . . . if the intent or result is the setting of prices." I don't think CCE has that intent; and, even if it did, I don't believe that it has had that result. CAC wouldn't be necessary otherwise. Keep in mind that at least some who are familiar with and behind the formation of CAC have expressed concern that the prices of premium coins (whatever that means) have been suppressed. I don't think there'd be any denial that the hope is for the better coins to increase in value.

Please don't apologize for the ambiguity. I figured that you knew that wasn't the case, but some individuals have made accusations of or innocently misunderstood that very thing.

 

CCE certainly has a major influence on prices in countless instances, and it can be both swift and dramatic. Many dealers consult/review CCE prices before determining what to try to buy or sell coins for at shows, as well as at their offices and auctions. In fact, it has gotten to the point where I often feel like a dinosaur in buying and selling coins without carrying my computer around at shows.

 

I don't know if it's the hope "for the better coins to increase in value", for the inferior coins to decrease in value, for a combination of both of those things and/or that already established values be more widely recognized. I will leave it to the market-makers to figure that stuff out.

[IGWT]

CCE certainly has a major influence on prices in countless instances, and it can be both swift and dramatic. Many dealers consult/review CCE prices before determining what to try to buy or sell coins for at shows, as well as at their offices and auctions. In fact, it has gotten to the point where I often feel like a dinosaur in buying and selling coins without carrying my computer around at shows.

 

I don't doubt that dealers track movement of prices on CCE and make decisions based on that information. I don't know whether or not it's susceptible to abuses that are intended to manipulate the market. But, if so, the abuse is probably limited, and, in any event, I'm quite sure that's not what you mean when you write that CCE "has a major influence on prices."

 

Edited to add: BTW, sincere thanks for being a good sport and for fielding questions that you're under no obligation to answer.

[halfpint]

There are certain dealers from whom I would buy or bid on coins sight unseen. I’ve done it many times and my retention rate (coin or token not returned) has been something like 99%.

 

I have more faith in these dealers and the relationships that I have them than in CAC. I’ve heard said that there are some CAC coins that would not please some tastes so far as toning goes. I’ll leave it at that.

 

i guess subjectivity enters in everywhere