When you purchase your next NGC or PCGS graded coin from a dealer....

[MikeInFL]

The best defense is good logic, which some seem to lack.

[CTcollector1]

CAC is a necessary evolution. If the grading services held the line, CAC wouldn't be necessary. The TPG's didn't maintain standards and now we have a mess in the certified market when it comes to accuracy for the grade.

 

I've learned one or two things from CAC already and plan to send the rest of my coins for review in the near future. I don't look at it as a security blanket. Rather just getting more expert critique on my coins. I am humble enough to recognize I don't know everything about the hobby and I am always looking for more insight.

 

 

 

 

[carson city]

Something like, the blind leading the blind-----Louis Braille

[CHABSENTIA]

If it is widely known that "grading is subjective, inconsistent, and imperfect" then what makes the CAC sticker better in this "imperfect' world?.

 

I merely listed a possibilty.

 

1. Either the coins graded by PCGS and NGC went downhill right after Albanese left or just for a certain period and then tightened up. or

2. CAC has even stricter standards. or

3. The grading standards at NGC and PCGS never changed and they have been the same since he left both.

 

It has to be one of the other or a little of both.Now I have heard all sorts of resons by people that approve of the CAC stickering that some people need an extra assurance on the grade.Now you are saying that it does "not mean that the coin is overgraded" Just that it is not as solid? So instead of an MS 67 coin I might have a MS 66.8 coin according to them.

 

This is even worse because then they should also have a sticker with the reason for the refusal. Otherwise there are going to be people that will view a refusal as a lowering of at least an entire grade.

 

There may be all kinds of defenses but it seems to me that if a refusal of the sticker then denotes the grade as not being solid then it sounds as if CAC is trying to start a new grading system. Instead of MS60, MS61,MS62....MS69 then we can have MS68.4.

 

It used to be that there was no number designations and the terms were BU and Gem BU etc.Now CAC only wants to give it a more solid grade?What if the grader of the original slab had one of those inconsistent and imperfect days you mention and graded the coin as an MS69 when actually it was an MS69.2 Is CAC then going to give out a sticker that shows that the coin is a little more solid?

 

CAC is not going to depend on the grader and come under the guise of inconsistent and imperfect at times?

 

People can be sued for any number of reasons. If the Lawyer wants to make a name for himself/herself and/or figures there is a chance for a judgement then they will take it on a Contingency basis at not cost to the person filing the claim. If they don't think they can win then they will take any case as long as the Client is willing to pay.Just look at that Lawsit that the Fast food Comapanies were responsible for Fat Children.Look at the Woman that won a million dollars from Mc Donalds because she spilled hot coffee from there on herself. The woman was irresponsible but won because Mc donalds made it over a certain temperature in order that it would still be hot when people got where they were going and were safe to drink it..They were trying to please the Customer and because a woman couldn't adjust it correctly and couldn't wait until it was safe then she got awarded a million dollars.

 

I said " that if some disgruntled collectors decided to file a lawsuit over the fact that the coin was refused a sticker even though it was origianally given that grade under the watchful eye of Albanese that there could be a problem".

 

I understand that Mcdonalds had been making their coffee at that high temperature for some time before the million dollar win.It doesn't mean that the problem that i mentioned doesn't exist. It only means that the time is right for several reasons.

1. It is not widespread.

2. Nobody else has thought of it

3. Nobody has suffered what they consider enough Economic Damage to put it in motion.

 

Nobody knows what a Jury will decide afterwards.Meanwhile if it does happen there will be a cloud over the CAC sticker until the outcome is decided.

 

Again I mention only the possibility because it can happen.

 

 

 

 

[carson city]

Very well stated, however getting CAC to explain any operational details of how CAC stickers will relate to the real world, i.e. coin prices, seems as unlikely as the entire concept itself.

[MarkFeld]

If it is widely known that "grading is subjective, inconsistent, and imperfect" then what makes the CAC sticker better in this "imperfect' world?.

 

I merely listed a possibilty.

 

1. Either the coins graded by PCGS and NGC went downhill right after Albanese left or just for a certain period and then tightened up. or

2. CAC has even stricter standards. or

3. The grading standards at NGC and PCGS never changed and they have been the same since he left both.

 

It has to be one of the other or a little of both.Now I have heard all sorts of resons by people that approve of the CAC stickering that some people need an extra assurance on the grade.Now you are saying that it does "not mean that the coin is overgraded" Just that it is not as solid? So instead of an MS 67 coin I might have a MS 66.8 coin according to them.

 

This is even worse because then they should also have a sticker with the reason for the refusal. Otherwise there are going to be people that will view a refusal as a lowering of at least an entire grade.

 

There may be all kinds of defenses but it seems to me that if a refusal of the sticker then denotes the grade as not being solid then it sounds as if CAC is trying to start a new grading system. Instead of MS60, MS61,MS62....MS69 then we can have MS68.4.

 

It used to be that there was no number designations and the terms were BU and Gem BU etc.Now CAC only wants to give it a more solid grade?What if the grader of the original slab had one of those inconsistent and imperfect days you mention and graded the coin as an MS69 when actually it was an MS69.2 Is CAC then going to give out a sticker that shows that the coin is a little more solid?

 

CAC is not going to depend on the grader and come under the guise of inconsistent and imperfect at times?

 

People can be sued for any number of reasons. If the Lawyer wants to make a name for himself/herself and/or figures there is a chance for a judgement then they will take it on a Contingency basis at not cost to the person filing the claim. If they don't think they can win then they will take any case as long as the Client is willing to pay.Just look at that Lawsit that the Fast food Comapanies were responsible for Fat Children.Look at the Woman that won a million dollars from Mc Donalds because she spilled hot coffee from there on herself. The woman was irresponsible but won because Mc donalds made it over a certain temperature in order that it would still be hot when people got where they were going and were safe to drink it..They were trying to please the Customer and because a woman couldn't adjust it correctly and couldn't wait until it was safe then she got awarded a million dollars.

 

I said " that if some disgruntled collectors decided to file a lawsuit over the fact that the coin was refused a sticker even though it was origianally given that grade under the watchful eye of Albanese that there could be a problem".

 

I understand that Mcdonalds had been making their coffee at that high temperature for some time before the million dollar win.It doesn't mean that the problem that i mentioned doesn't exist. It only means that the time is right for several reasons.

1. It is not widespread.

2. Nobody else has thought of it

3. Nobody has suffered what they consider enough Economic Damage to put it in motion.

 

Nobody knows what a Jury will decide afterwards.Meanwhile if it does happen there will be a cloud over the CAC sticker until the outcome is decided.

 

Again I mention only the possibility because it can happen.

 

 

 

You are absolutely correct, or not - all sorts of things are possible.

[carson city]

Very lucid answer, as was expected ! ?

[CHABSENTIA]

True. My only point was a possible Economic situation that "could " arise.

 

Nobody can predict what will happen in the real world because each time somebody says. that it can't happen then it does.

 

If anybody besides Albanese had been the Founder of CAC then it most likely would not happen.The Comaprison is there.

 

If CAC is merely "stamping" the solidity of a grade there is really no way that a person can make a judgement. Lets say that a 1888 Morgan Dollar MS65 is being presented for a CAC sticker. Lets say that it has been slabbed by PCGS or NGC.

 

CAC refused to sticker it.Is this because it is actually a 64.8 or 64.5 since they are only looking at the Solidity and it is not quite a MS65.

 

This would seem to be a problem. The present grade system in MS is in one increment from 60 to 70.. There is no 62.5. Could it be that CAC is trying to start one?If the refusal is for not being a solid MS65 then how many ticks in their estimation is it for? Nobody will know as it is just a solidity check.

 

If they do sticker the MS65 in question then could it really be a MS65.3

 

We have finally arrived at the true point which is where it is said "that all grading is subjective and imperfect etc" if this is then the case then what excludes CAC from this definition? It would seem that there is not only the situation of Albanese as the Driving force behind PCGS and NGC but also the subjective and imperfect grading situation with it.

 

 

We had the "First Strike ' situation with the A.S.E. Could this be an anticiapted situation where CAC has to be the first ones to grade coins with a fraction to further define the Solidity.?

 

[Tradedollarnut]

huh?

[Arizonadesertrat]

huh?

 

I am confused too.

[carson city]

Confusion seems to be synonymous with CAC ! Also, seems like the ignore button is not working !

[coinman1794]

So what possible defense would there be if for any reason a coin that was graded during his Tenure was refused a CAC sticker?

As I stated before, a grade is determined by a team of graders, not just one person. It is also widely known that grading is subjective, inconsistent and imperfect. There would therefore be a number of defenses, though none will be needed.

 

Edited to add: Also, the fact that CAC refuses to sticker a coin (and they have already done so in several hundreds of cases) doesn't automatically mean that the coin was over-graded. It means that it is not up to the CAC standard of solid for the grade or PQ coins.

 

Mark is right on with the problem of subjectivity. Also, it doesn't matter (imo) when the coins were graded or by whom. That would only be pertinant if the entire concept of third party grading weren't fundamentally flawed because of human limitations in maintaining consistency (Actually, I think the problem is where people blindly accept the opionion of the grading service and pay market value for what's writen on the holder instead of for the quality of the coin.) Albanese, someone else, or any team is capable of grading the same coin differently 5 minutes later; what happened between 1987 and 2007 is irrelevant, in that regard.

 

CAC is bound to encounter the exact same difficulties of the TPGs; there are no grading gods, and no one or any team is perfectly consistent all day long.

[carson city]

You know that and we know that----good luck trying to convince CAC of this fact !

[CHABSENTIA]

I have no Horse in this race. I purchase and collect coins for my own enjoyment and have no Plans to Sell so a sticker would not only look out of place for me but would be a waste of resources.

 

I have coins that I haven't looked at . I have the Proof sets from 1968 and the Mint sets from 1970 that I have only looked at to catalog and not examined. I have about 2 coin tubes of circuated Mercury dimes taht I have never looked at. I doubt that there are any important dates.

 

I am now just learning about the Morgans

 

I was merely commenting on the Economic Possibilties due to various situations ehich may or may not affect me in the Future.

[Newmismatist]

The CAC sticker will give beginning novice collectors the peace of mind that they need when purchasing coins. After they have collected for a period of time, they hopefully will have learned how to grade the coins that they collect. Then they will not need to rely on a CAC sticker to help make their decision.

 

I have collected coins for almost 40 years. I won the PCGS World Series of Grading [collector division] the first year and came in second the 2nd year. I can grade my series as well or better than any collector. Yet I cannot consistently detect the alterations that the coin doctors can do to coins these days. Enhanced luster, lasering, puttying, detail strengthening, artificial toning, complete rebuilds, accelerated toning, etc. They are so good that I need backup.

 

The collector that thinks they can detect all that as well as an industry leading expert is fooling themselves.

 

Bruce makes an excellent point - I would like to think I would be able to detect all the shenaigans that are going on, but many are quite new and very deceptive. Like major surgery, the more expensive the coin, the more the need for getting a second opinion. JMHO

[Houston Investor]

The best defense is good logic, which some seem to lack.

 

As to coin acquisitions I would agree Mike. To me its a matter of how I want to allocate risk.

 

If you can buy nice, eye appealing coins close to melt (basal value) or from the USM I would say you do not need a CAC sticker. Here are some of my recent acquisitions I bought close to basal value. The ANACS MS 70 Jamestown was one I bought raw from the USM then slabbed. The Italy 20 Lire (he has interesting history) I essentially picked up at melt and the Belgium silver coin I found in a coin shop junk box while entertaining myself while out of town for my Financial Consulting Business. The 1937 NZ Florin is a scarce coin in mint state I picked up essentially for what MS 60's trade for. I also bought a large bulk quantity of Old SF $5 Gold Proofs at a good price. I like better world coins too.

 

But if you are buying a 1934-S Peace Dollar in say PCGS MS 65 and shelling out about 9 or 10 k then I can't blame you if you prefer one with a CAC sticker. My single investments of that magnitude or higher are in real estate or mutual funds and stocks (like Newmont Gold Mining Corp).

 

[carson city]

Beautiful coins. Another 1000+ views !

[RI AL]

I'm beginning to see a parallel between school teaching and Coin Collecting. I LOVED the teaching...all 33 years on 3 different continents. My last 23 were in the Massachusetts school system. As it went from year to year, the more foolish it became. More mandates from state and feds, not to mention administration. Much more records of student progress which were shreaded by administration after maintaining 4 year files. More pointless meetings, guest speakers who were worthless, more lawyers getting invloved (well paid for their useless presentations)...mode "professional development" days where the kids missed out of school..all on a shrinking budget. More stupid TESTING of the kids..regardless of strengths or limitations so that all 12th graders had to pass the SAME test to graduate...It is, at some point, going to implode.

 

As a coin collector for about 50 years, I remember the fun and good, clean simplicity of the Whitman albums, pulling stuff from pocket change and an occasional visit to a coin dealer who encouraged young collectors such as myself. I have seen many changes in the hobby. I guess good enough wasn't good enough. The hobby also has become too darned complicated. I went along with most of the changes I have seen and finally learned that certification had merit...though that was a hard pill to swallow. The CAC issue, however, is not digesting at ALL with me ....it has soured me somewhat as 1 more gimmick, one more unnecessary and unwelcomed "straw" to add to the already staggering camel's back. For those who accept the CAC ides, that's fine. As for me, I certainly will not ever purposely search for the "football". If the coin is right, and the price is right I will buy it. If it has the football sticker, then that's OK too but I will not seek it out. The camel is staggering now, and I feel especially badly for kids because the hobby has almost become out of reach for many.

 

How WILL CAC premiums be assessed?? I would love to see a comparison chart of market value for CAC and equivalent non-CAC coins.

 

In a very quick skim of Coin World, November 26, .I failed to locate a single CAC coin in an ad. I know it is still "flushing" into the system, but like teaching...loved the job, hated the BS. OOOOOPS...just found Gold Rarities Gallery, p.10 in Nov. 26 Coin World. They have lots of CAC stuff. I think I'll pass.

 

RI AL....sorry for being long winded.

[John Martinez]

If I had money to spend, I would learn all I could about the series that I chose to focus on.

 

I can see a need for the CAC service by those people who blindly purchase "investment grade" coins -- er --- slabs from a dealer who just made a phone call to that person.

 

Perhaps CAC might want to advertise in AARP publications.

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

If I had money to spend, I would learn all I could about the series that I chose to focus on.

 

How would you go about doing that to ensure you know a nice coin from a not so nice coin? Please be specific - generalities of 'learning all I can' are not good enough.

 

[carson city]

TDN---he's back !

[Mirrored Morgan]

If I had money to spend, I would learn all I could about the series that I chose to focus on.

 

How would you go about doing that to ensure you know a nice coin from a not so nice coin? Please be specific - generalities of 'learning all I can' are not good enough.

 

I can hear what John is talking about, he would like to know as much about the series he is collecting. John, then would have more information on how that series is graded by the TPG. Gold $20.00 Saints and Morgan Dollars are graded different, atleast some of the ones that I have collected. You can see that MS65 Saints will have more hits that MS65 Morgans. I have learned about the coins that I have collected, as you have with your tradedollars. So, TDN, what part of "learning what I can about the series" do you not understand?

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

If I had money to spend, I would learn all I could about the series that I chose to focus on.

 

How would you go about doing that to ensure you know a nice coin from a not so nice coin? Please be specific - generalities of 'learning all I can' are not good enough.

 

I can hear what John is talking about, he would like to know as much about the series he is collecting. John, then would have more information on how that series is graded by the TPG. Gold $20.00 Saints and Morgan Dollars are graded different, atleast some of the ones that I have collected. You can see that MS65 Saints will have more hits that MS65 Morgans. I have learned about the coins that I have collected, as you have with your tradedollars. So, TDN, what part of "learning what I can about the series" do you not understand?

 

 

Sorry, not good enough. I need specifics to evaluate how you expect a collector to know exactly what he's doing so as to not need additional opinions beyond his own on a coin. Come on - it's not hard - is it?? Pardon me for calling bs - but you can't just wave your hands in the air in a nebulous manner and pontificate that a collector should 'learn all you can about your series' and then assume that someone who 'learns all they can about their series' then knows enough to keep themselves out of trouble. You don't get to say that the reason someone values another opinion is because they 'don't know enough about their series'.... at least not without some of us calling bs!

[Mirrored Morgan]

Part of the learning process in coins is needing "additional opinions beyond his own" to learn about the series. Did I mention that a coin collector didn't need to do this? I don't think so. Did I say that after someone learned about a series they would know enough to stay out of trouble, maybe. Some people are slow learners and need to go to the school of hard knocks. How did you start learning? I am sure you bought your share of dogs before seeing the light.

 

You have a very bad habit of putting your words in other peoples mouths. You should try and correct this indecent behavior before responding to anymore threads. Pardon me for calling BS

[Tradedollarnut]

So, TDN, what part of "learning what I can about the series" do you not understand?

 

I put words in your mouth? Hardly. You jumped right into the fire. Don't get all hot and bothered about my response if you're gonna start off that way.

[carson city]

What's the problem TDN, you aren't going to answer the question anyway. Just another excuse to dodge the question !

[MarkFeld]

If I had money to spend, I would learn all I could about the series that I chose to focus on.

 

How would you go about doing that to ensure you know a nice coin from a not so nice coin? Please be specific - generalities of 'learning all I can' are not good enough.

 

I can hear what John is talking about, he would like to know as much about the series he is collecting. John, then would have more information on how that series is graded by the TPG. Gold $20.00 Saints and Morgan Dollars are graded different, atleast some of the ones that I have collected. You can see that MS65 Saints will have more hits that MS65 Morgans. I have learned about the coins that I have collected, as you have with your tradedollars. So, TDN, what part of "learning what I can about the series" do you not understand?

 

That comparison of Morgans to Saints covers just one among numerous aspects of learning about coins.

 

What happens if you look at a group of MS65 Saints that are low-end or over-graded and you haven't seen a nice group to compare them to?

 

Or you look at a large, PQ group without knowing they are such and later think that other, accurately graded examples are over-graded?

 

You read in a book or on a website that certain dates in the series have different color or better luster and/or strike than others. What good does that do you if you don't also have quantities of those different dates in hand to be able to compare for yourself?

 

Much of coin collecting and grading is based upon perspective. And unless a collector is exposed to extremely large quantities of coins of all different grades AND has the luxury/benefit of being able to review them with a knowledgeable and and helpful collector or dealer, he will likely have an impossible time being able to learn all he could about the series that he chose to focus on.

 

Saying that a collector can or should learn all that he can is fine, easy and sounds good. The reality and practicality of doing it is far more difficult, however.

[carson city]

Surely you jest !

[Tradedollarnut]

Saying that a collector can or should learn all that he can is fine, easy and sounds good. The reality and practicality of doing it is far more difficult, however.

 

Exactly my point. Reading all you can about a series will do NOTHING to help you grade proof or ms coins. Will do NOTHING to help you spot doctored coins. Looking at pictures of coins in books and on the internet will NOT help you to grade MS or proof coinage.

 

All it will do is give you a false sense of security and lead to one making such statements as 'if you learn all you can about a series you don't need another experts opinion before you buy a coin'.

 

[Mirrored Morgan]

Looking at pictures of coins in books and on the internet will NOT help you to grade MS or proof coinage. All it will do is give you a false sense of security.

 

WOW! I must have wasted my time reading this book. Maybe I should send it to John and see if he can make heads or tails from reading it.