NT or AT?

[kryptonitecomics]

There are a few untoned spots on the reverse that look typical of bag toning whereby the coin stuck to the bag and when it was removed that toning stuck to the bag.

 

I'm at a disadvantage in that photobucket is blocked for me at work and I can't see your picture, but I would like an explanation of this part. I've never heard of toning sticking to the bag.

 

I won't call it quite common but I believe it is....

 

As the layers of toning (Silver Sulfide) build up on a coin surface that is pressed into the side of a bag.........sometimes that layer of toning adhere to the cloth bag so when the coin is removed part of the toning sticks and you can find untoned spots on an otherwise fully toned coin. There are other reasons a spot might be untoned on a coin but when talking about Bag toned Morgans.....typcially the pull away effect is a big culprit. If you think of the weight involved, 1,000 morgans in a bag.....and then add in many decades these coins sat in the bags....it makes sense that some of the coin might have lightly stuck to the sides of the bags.

 

I know that Ron Sirna has told of stories he heard surrounding the Continental Bank Hoard of toned coins. The individuals that were responsibile for removing the coins said their hands were covered with little flakes of toning when they got done.

[IrishMike]

A year and a half ago except for a dark spot at 9 o'clock this coin was white. 18 mos later of storage in my desk it turned. But I know its bag toned.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=423&Lot_No=64665 Check out this one..hope the link works..unbelievable that it could get slabbed and also that someone would pay this amount for this..

Good catch, and you are right. Another awful AT coin, this time slabbed by NGC.

[kryptonitecomics]

A year and a half ago except for a dark spot at 9 o'clock this coin was white. 18 mos later of storage in my desk it turned. But I know its bag toned.

 

 

Yes but you set your coffee cup on it daily....that's not fair

[IrishMike]

No Sanka on this puppy!

[MikeInFL]

Well let me clearify a bit....I believe the coin spent time in a bag....40 years was a guess as it could have been 5 ...10......15....years for all I know (thumbs u

 

And then I believe it was placed in an album or envelope as it has characteristics of both Bag toning and Album/Envelope toning. I know that this is very common to run across but I should have been more clear as I believe that a lot of the color on both sides was derived from the album/envelope. There are a few untoned spots on the reverse that look typical of bag toning whereby the coin stuck to the bag and when it was removed that toning stuck to the bag.

 

I think in a nut shell the clear as mud point of my post was........I am supremely confident that my morgan took many decades to tone the way it did so to find a coin from 2001 with a similar toning pattern/colors would be quite the stretch in terms of it being natural color.

 

Thanks, Shane, for taking the time to clarify your comments. While I think I understand what you're saying, I am a bit skeptical with respect to knowing this coin spent time in a bag then an envelope, although I admittedly do not have the advantage of inspecting the coin in-hand nor a great deal of experience with Morgans....

 

In a bit more detail, I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion this spent time in a bag because of the areas which lack toning. A much more likely conclusion (to me) is that either a) the toning simply came off in handling, or b) the toning never took place because of something on the coin itself or the way it was stored. To me, a lack of toning in an area, in and of itself, is not nearly enough evidence to conclude the coin was stored in a bag.

 

Personally, I'm always wary of envelope-toned coins because of just how easy it is to "help" these coins tone (or so I am told).

 

All IMHO and respectfully submitted...Mike

[kryptonitecomics]

Fair enough Mike but I wasn't just basing my assessment off of the untoned spots, I also feel like the toning at the bottom of the Obvserse looks a lot more like bag toning with the clors transition then it does album toning and finally.....the album toned coins I have owned tend to have somewhat subdued luster in hand due to the storage method but this coin is a blazer. That is in no way conclusive since it's an "S" mint coin.........but in hand it sure seems to have components of both and so many of theses coins spent time in bags and then were purcahsed and moved to albums and other storage devices that I think it's likely this coin fits that mold. I think we see what we want to see in hand and I never had any doubts as to how this coin developed it's toning until you posted some points for thought.....valid points I might add......so it just shows that we should never be closed minded about learning about the coins in our collection (thumbs u

[IrishMike]

Shane my apologies, my reply was meant as a joke. The Frankie is a result of a toning experiment told to me years ago and I chuckled at the guy.Many old coins especially proofs were stuck in cabinets and developed this kind of toning. This guy is a coin geek and experimented around after his wife mistakenly did something to his cabinet and his coins began to tone. I refused to believe him until I tried it myself. I owed him a big apology.

 

Again my Sanka post was entirely meant to be tongue in cheek, I hate Sanka .

[kryptonitecomics]

No reason to apologise??? I thought it was a joke and played along.......Chris is the only one that is not allowed to joke with me.......dag burned pool shark!!!!!!

 

 

[Houston Investor]

Nowadays, in this slow market, I only offer blue sheet bid for certified coins brought to my table at shows (that I can use for inventory); whether it is toned or not is irrelevant. I have never been involved in the AT vs NT debate - this is even more subjective than grading. I did have one fellow make a comment about one of my toned coins in the holder of a major grading service one time at a show saying "I think that coin is AT." I simply told him "well maybe you should go start a grading service." The fact is tarnished coins are tarnished coins - what process caused it and when can be debatable and a subjective observation. If your really are that interested in toned coins, I would suggest reading the coin preservation handbook. Many tarnished coins will only get worse as time goes on.

 

While I prefer brilliant coins with nice luster, I have been amazed on what toned coins will bring in an ebay auction at times. I feel sorry for that guy that pays multiples of the retail price guide price for a toned coin when he tries to take it to a show and sell it howerver.

[kryptonitecomics]

I respect your opinion.....but I respectifully disagree....with this statement "Many tarnished coins will only get worse as time goes on" If the coin is taken out of the enviroment (Bag, Album. Envelope) that caused the initial toning, then the coin should stabalize with little to no additional toning over many decades or even century's. Only if the coin has something still reactive on it's surface or...if it is still in contact with the toning agent...I.e. sulfer based products would your statement ring true for me (thumbs u

 

As far as you preferring white coins....I have to say I am happy about that as the toning premiums can be a killer so less demand means better prices for me....so I guess I should thank you

 

You are very correct about selling toned coins at a show....if a seller doesn't seek out a dealer that specializes in that type of material they will most likely be offered no premium or worse....be offered less than a blast white coin might bring.

[cpm9ball]

No reason to apologise??? I thought it was a joke and played along.......Chris is the only one that is not allowed to joke with me.......dag burned pool shark!!!!!!

 

 

 

Hey you, in your "coinhead sperm" shirt.......say what?

 

All right, I take it back...............I won't rack!

 

Chris

 

PS. Dena!!! Make sure Shane gets an invitation to the NGC luncheon at FUN. I can't wait to get him in the poolroom.

[Bruceswar]

A year and a half ago except for a dark spot at 9 o'clock this coin was white. 18 mos later of storage in my desk it turned. But I know its bag toned.

 

 

Hey sounds like my taco bell napkin...

[Houston Investor]

I respect your opinion.....but I respectifully disagree....with this statement "Many tarnished coins will only get worse as time goes on" If the coin is taken out of the enviroment (Bag, Album. Envelope) that caused the initial toning, then the coin should stabalize with little to no additional toning over many decades or even century's. Only if the coin has something still reactive on it's surface or...if it is still in contact with the toning agent...I.e. sulfer based products would your statement ring true for me (thumbs u

 

As far as you preferring white coins....I have to say I am happy about that as the toning premiums can be a killer so less demand means better prices for me....so I guess I should thank you

 

You are very correct about selling toned coins at a show....if a seller doesn't seek out a dealer that specializes in that type of material they will most likely be offered no premium or worse....be offered less than a blast white coin might bring.

 

I do not agree toned coins should sell at a "killer premium." Toning is merely a preference, not a reason for some lowlife seller to price coins at multiples of the price guide price. I think many of you who believe you should pay a huge premium for toned coins have fallen for propoganda perpetuated by dealers who all of a sudden see a market in toned coins passed on by many on the bourse. Well I will test this and pick up some toned coins and see how they do. Remember too, coins exposed to the atmosphere will oxidize and if this is salt air will develop a black film. Read the coin preservation handbook. Recently, I cracked out 3 toned coins of TPG A, dipped them, and submitted to TPG B and got one full point higher in grade on all 3.

 

I have seen many beautiful toned coins but my favorites are lustrous pieces with hints of gold or blue. Green toning may mean PVC however - so watch out for that. I once encountered a guy who had a collection of classic commems, many which were beautifully toned (hues of blue, gold, etc.), and raw - probably around 2 dozen pieces. I tried really hard to buy them, even laying the money out on the table. His wife, seeing the green wanted him to take the deal, but he was too ignorant about coins and confused to make a decision. Worse yet, this was at the end of a 3 day show and it was pack up or else so I could not wait around while he wandered to other tables with his head up his rear end. I will always wonder what happened with that deal and how much they much may have realized after going down the food chain thru the slab mill and finally with the end user. Did they end up at Teletrade Raw Coin service and some dealer pocketing a hefty check? Or did the guy all of a sudden get smart and slab them himself? Had this been a shop, I am certain they would have gotten the deal.

 

I wish you could have seen this guys collection of toned commems - I am sure he had just recently inherited or acquired them and did not really know what he had. Of course, he could have been playing out an act with a bunch of AT'd coins, but I do not think so.

[kryptonitecomics]

I agree it's a preference...nothing wrong with folks liking different things...I also agree that collecting toners isn't for the faint of heart....there are no price guides out their that give you a range of what you should have to pay like there is for widgets......

 

But I have found a personal freedom in collecting toners....a freedom of choice......I look at a coin, I like it, and I then decide how much it is worth to me to add that coin to my collection. I don't carry a grey sheet around with me....I just find coins with exceptional eye appeal and I use my expertise with toned coins to spot real from memorex. If you look at enough coins and understand the chemical reactions and natural colors of toning progression and then couple that with knowledge of storage methods typical for certain types of coins.....and finally purchase coins in reputable TPG holders.......your chances of getting burned are little to known. It takes all of the steps I mentioned rolled together to provide a high level of confidence that a collector is getting the real deal. (thumbs u

 

We all have different opinions as to what a coin is worth and for the last several years a lot of coin dealers have priced very plain coins with a spot of color way over their true value.....but if collectors don't buy them....then they will have to get a clue and lower their prices. If people walk blindly up to the case with money in hand but no knowledge in their heads then they are creating the problems for themselves.

 

Green toning and PVC are two completely seperate things....they don't look the same, they don't reflect the light the same way....and if folks are getting confused between PVC and Green toning.........they should not be buying toned coins period. As for you cracking out coins and dipping them.....what a shame it is to remove the original skin for a coin just for an upgrade I know what your saying about upgrades via dipping is true and I know that dealers do it everyday, even with some pretty rare and valuable pieces........but as a collector I am entrusted with protecting my coins for future generations to enjoy and tampering with the surfaces for the sake of profit is not something I personally choose to do....but to each his own.