An eBay seller e-mailed to me his opinions on the new eBay policy

[edmerlr]

A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO PURCHASED A COIN VIA EBAY FROM THE SELLER BELOW.

 

SOME HOW I ENDED UP ON THEIR E-MAIL LIST.

 

I HAVE NOT PURCHASED OR BID ON THIS SELLER'S ITEMS FOR AT LEAST TWO YEARS.

 

ISN'T THIS ONE OF THE COMPANIES WHO SOLD COINS SLABBED BY A 3rd TIER TPGS CALLED "NNC?"

 

I AM POSTING THIS FOR INFORMATION ONLY.

 

BY POSTING THIS, I AM NOT IMPLYING ANY AGREEMENT OR DISAGREEMENT WHAT-SO-EVER WITH WHAT THEY SAY.

 

THE E-MAIL TO ME FOLLOWS COMPLETE AND UNEDITED IN ITS ENTIRETY:

 

October 9, 2007

 

To: The Customers of Centsles

 

From: Robert Johnson, Owner, Centsles, Inc.

 

Many of you have e-mailed us at Centsles regarding the sudden change in the way our coins are listed for auction. Due to a recent eBay decision, eBay sellers are limited in the information that can be used in the title and description for some coin auction postings. We have been advised that this is an effort by eBay to reduce fraud and fraudulent listings. The following link will direct you to their new coin selling policy:

 

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-coins.html

 

As you can see under the title Some Examples, we are no longer allowed to list the certification (grading) company name, or the grade assigned, in the title or the description of the auction listing for any coins not graded and encapsulated by PCGS, NGC, NCS (owned by NGC), ICG and/or ANACS. We will still be able to list coins not graded by those 5 companies mentioned in the policy, but they will now be considered by eBay as raw/uncertified. This policy is now being enforced as of October 1, 2007.

 

Susan McMillan, American Numismatic Association (ANA) Consumer Awareness Coordinator has stated in the ANA press release of September 18, 2007:

 

In order for consumer fraud to occur, three elements must be present: a person's

desire, ability and opportunity to commit the fraud, said ANA Consumer Awareness

Coordinator Susan McMillan, We cannot control a person's desire or ability, but we

can try to remove the opportunity.

 

In our opinion, her statement implies that Centsles and those dealing in coins not certified by the 5 authorized companies are committing fraud. Also in our opinion, it implies that collectors and resellers of coins purchased from Centsles, and other dealers, are also committing fraud. As stated within this press release, those representing the ANA, applaud and support this decision as an improvement by eBay to protect you, the consumer, from yourself. A link to the ANA statement has been provided below for your additional clarification. Also keep in mind while reading, ANA President, Mr. Stuppler (eBay id verypq ) and ANA Acting Executive Director, Mr. Kenneth Hallenbeck (eBay id Hallenbeckcoins), both quoted in the ANA statement, are eBay Powersellers who only sell coins certified by NGC, PCGS, ANACS & ICG coins.

 

http://www.money.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=11936

 

In fact, the value of the coins certified by those five approved grading companies could now have the potential to have an artificially inflated cost due to the decrease in supply of available alternatives.

 

While we strongly disagree with eBay's new policy, we are making every effort to comply. However, it is our opinion that this policy may in fact violate antitrust laws. If you feel the same, we strongly encourage you to do some research into this question, and if convinced, contact the United States Department of Justice (DOJ). We are supplying the following link regarding the antitrust laws found at the Department of Justice website:

 

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/contact/newcase.htm

 

It may interest you to know that some of the unauthorized grading services, eBay sellers and consumers, such as yourself, have made the effort and have already contacted the Department of Justice regarding eBay's policy. The more people to protest eBay's policy to the DOJ the stronger the demand for an investigation into the overall impact this policy will have.

 

If you do not feel as strongly about this as an antitrust issue, but still feel this policy is in some way unfair and unjust, please contact eBay to make your statement at: http://pages.ebay.com/help/newtoebay/questions/contact-support.html

 

We thank you, our customers, for your continued confidence in and support of Centsles as an eBay Powerseller!

[cpm9ball]

I have never had any dealings with "Centsles", but I will relate to you something a close friend who had been an astute collector/dealer for 50 years told me......."Don't do business with Centsles. His raw coins are overgraded."

 

Chris

[edmerlr]

Chris...

 

...I have lots of VERY STRONG OPINIONS about Centsles.

 

I just wanted to post their e-mail.

 

I normally am open about my opinions.

 

This time I just decided to keep my mouth closed and only be a messenger.

 

Ed R.

[gmarguli]

I've dealt with Centsles several times and I've had nothing but excellent transactions.

[cpm9ball]

I have no opinion of this seller. I'm only conveying what someone else told me.

 

Chris

[RGT]

I have bought four coins from Centsles. Two I kept and two I sent back. The two I kept were nice coins and good deals for me. Both times I returned a coin I had no problems and a prompt refund. I just had the "cents" to not buy any NNC coins, though I was tempted a few times and if his pictures were better I might have given it a shot.

[MikeInFL]

Despite his fair return policy, the vast majority of Centsles's auctions are, in my opinion, traps for the novice, and that's why he is playing the "anti-trust" card -- and self-interest is what drives sending e-mails such as the one posted above.

 

Additionally, and in my opinion, Centsles is jumping to incorrect conclusions by saying "In our opinion, her statement implies that Centsles and those dealing in coins not certified by the 5 authorized companies are committing fraud. Also in our opinion, it implies that collectors and resellers of coins purchased from Centsles, and other dealers, are also committing fraud. " When eBay's words imply nothing of the sort, and jumping to that conclusion says to me he probably just has a guilty conscience...Mike

 

[edited to correct spelling/word choice ]

[123cents]

Centsles has been screwing the beginning and novice collector for years. In the past they have used ACG, PCI, and now NNC as their grading service. I have no sympathy for them.

[RGT]

I don't intend to convey any simpathy or support for him. I'm just saying that he has a fair return policy and a knowledgable person should have no trouble dealing with him.

 

When I first returned to serious coin collecting around ten years ago I was unaware of the new grading companies that had developed even back then. At that time I owned three slabbed coins, one ANACS and two PCGS. I won an NTC rare date trime from him on ebay graded AU58. The coin had been doctored and in hand under a loupe I recognized that. What I learned from that transaction was that NTC didn't grade properly and Centles had a no problem return policy.

 

The fact is, he is a self slabber and he knows how to grade. He just chooses not to grade correctly. I may not be quite as cold hearted as Greg, but I can't look out for everyone who buys coins on ebay. It's been a couple of years or more since I've bought from him but I would do so again if I thought I could get a good deal. As a buyer I try to look out for myself and expect others to make the same attempt for themselves.

 

He gets no sympathy from me, but I will not cast stones at him for expressing his opinions, no matter how silly they may be.

[physics-fan3.14]

I've dealt with Centsles several times and I've had nothing but excellent transactions.

 

I bought two proof franklins from him, graded by NNC. They were nice, lightly cameod, overgraded by a couple of points. But once I cracked them, I sold one for twice what I paid for it and kept the other one. If you know what you are doing, and are always cautious, he is not bad. That being said, I agree he is probably trying to sucker newbies.

[Houston Investor]

I have dealt with Centsles in the past and have had excellent transactions. These involved ANACS coins as I only slab / purchase TPG coins from the 4 major grading services: NGC, ICG, PCGS, ANACS. The coins I bought from him were really nice and were a super deal.

 

It will be interesting to see how the anti-trust complaint against ebay plays out. As a seller of raw coins also, the new ebay policy (a very radical step) does concern me as I would hate to see something like this instituted on the bourse at shows. I have been grading coins and currency for over 30 years (long before there was a TPG) and would strongly resent someone telling me I could not put a grade on my raw material. If you have nice raw material, you may want to consider the new Chinese self slabbing product. These are easy and fun to work with and there is even a label making program you can purchase. However, as inexpensive as it is to slab coins with one of the TPG's above, especially mods, I don't see myself self slabbing many coins except bullion and coins not expensive enough to justify a slab fee.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ibyandsellsmith]

Well kudos to Ebay for taking a stand on the third tier grading services, or for that matter the no tier grading services. The novice collector could get taking for some serious cabbage, if he wasn't careful.

[James_OldeTowne]

A coin with no guarantee as to it's grade in accordance with a published grading standard is not certified, and this is where I am in disagreement with "centsles". I'm not saying it is fraud to advertised merely "slabbed" coins as "certified", but I do not consider it honest or ethical.

 

All that being said, every transaction I've ever conducted with centsles (all ten or so of which have been in-person and sight-seen) has been successful.

[okbustchaser]

Additionally, and in my opinion, Centsles is jumping to incorrect conclusions by saying "In our opinion, her statement implies that Centsles and those dealing in coins not certified by the 5 authorized companies are committing fraud. Also in our opinion, it implies that collectors and resellers of coins purchased from Centsles, and other dealers, are also committing fraud. " When eBay's words imply nothing of the sort, and jumping to that conclusion says to me he probably just has a guilty conscience...Mike

 

 

You are right, Mike. Ebay's words don't imply that sellers of coins slabbed by other than approved companys are committing fraud--THEY FLAT OUT IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS STATE SO!!!! Mr Johnson has every right to resent such a statement.

 

I have never dealt with Centsles. I have never owned a coin slabbed by his company of choice. I do, however, believe he has EVERY BIT AS MUCH RIGHT to sell his merchandise as anyone selling NGC or PCGS

[carson city]

You get what you pay for, or what you deserve-----Donald Trump

[Houston Investor]

Centsles is a good guy to do business with. Any speculation why he handles all those off brand TPG's?

 

I do have sympathy for his feelings on the matter though.

[SuperDave]

Centsles is a good guy to do business with. Any speculation why he handles all those off brand TPG's?

 

I do have sympathy for his feelings on the matter though.

 

He IS the off-brand TPG. That's the point. NNC is him.

[Doogy]

Centsles is a good guy to do business with. Any speculation why he handles all those off brand TPG's?

 

I do have sympathy for his feelings on the matter though.

 

He IS the off-brand TPG. That's the point. NNC is him.

 

 

Yup! He has built up a ton of money using a house of cards, and now that its falling down he is steamed about it. I'm glad ebay has curtailed his gravy train somewhat, the NNC stuff (that he slabs) is mostly all . I bought a couple from him once, and it was horribly overgraded.

 

The ironic thing is that the guy has a great eye for REAL grading; he has won PCGS's World Series of Grading contest before. This fact leads me (and others have stated this too) to one conclusion: the decent coins he has slabbed by the major TPGs for resale, the dregs and cleaned he overgrades and slabs himself for sale to suckers and newbies with no guarantee on grade.

 

Look at Teletrade: they only allow the same TPGs that ebay now allows in their subject line, and you don't see TT getting sued. his case has little merit for a lawsuit, as ebay is free to do whatever it likes on their site.

 

 

[Doogy]

here is a good example, looks like he is testing ebay on their new policy. the vast majority of his self-slabbed is barely within ebay's new policy. however, he listed some new ones in the last couple days with the 'NNC' name in the title, probably to test just how strict ebay is going to be.

 

to give you an idea of his overgrading, here is his example of an MS67

 

ebay # 140166973281

 

if this isn't horribly overgraded, i'll eat my shoe on Youtube for all to see

 

 

[SuperDave]

here is a good example, looks like he is testing ebay on their new policy. the vast majority of his self-slabbed is barely within ebay's new policy. however, he listed some new ones in the last couple days with the 'NNC' name in the title, probably to test just how strict ebay is going to be.

 

to give you an idea of his overgrading, here is his example of an MS67

 

ebay # 140166973281

 

if this isn't horribly overgraded, i'll eat my shoe on Youtube for all to see

 

 

Hmmm. I went to look at that, and the auction was already gone. Interesting.

[cpm9ball]

........however, he listed some new ones in the last couple days with the 'NNC' name in the title, probably to test just how strict ebay is going to be.

 

I doubt that he did it just to test the strictness of the new policy. He'll probably use it as grounds to sue eBay. If he does sue, I hope that eBay refuses to settle out of court.

 

Chris

[Frank Provasek]

The government does not take too kindly upon artificial barriers to the market place. David Hall started as a self slabber. Ultimately, the marketplace determines the success or failure of grading companies and their admittedly different standards and valuations.

 

The third party grading services were formed in part to address complaints that the ANA standards of Uncirculated as "absolutely no trace of wear" were too strict, as they did not allow coins with wear or friction on the high points to be marketed as Mint State. From the PCGS coin grading guide , chapter 3: "Technically, it has slight friction, though the market dictates an Uncirculated price, not an AU price... Bust half dollars may have slight friction in grades as high as MS-67!"

 

and

 

"What slight friction? Discoloration on the high points? Who cares!"

[ibyandsellsmith]

The government does not take too kindly upon artificial barriers to the market place. David Hall started as a self slabber. Ultimately, the marketplace determines the success or failure of grading companies and their admittedly different standards and valuations.

 

 

Your right unfortunately a lot of people get screwed in the mean time, I've bought 1 NNC graded coin. Even though the price was right for the real grade of the coin, they over graded it by quite a bit. never will I buy another NNC graded coin, for the mere fact the company cannot grade worth a , and I will not support this kind of behavior to this hobby.

[Frank Provasek]

Even though the price was right for the real grade of the coin, they over graded it by quite a bit. never will I buy another NNC graded coin,

 

We have seen people pay very much over the correct price for the real grade, but since the coins were in the "top 2" slabs, the buyers felt they got a great deal.

[CHABSENTIA]

I bought a MS65 Morgan on E BAY several days ago.I paid $95.50 not including shipping and handling,.It is a salbbed NGC Coin.

 

Numismedia has it listed here as $147.50. Red book edition 61 has it as $200.00 and Coin Value which is coin world has it as $ 185.00

 

I got it at a good price no matter which value you care to use.I got it at a better price if you use the Red Book values.If somebody had paid $165.00 for the same coin they would have overpaid via the Numismedia price but underpaid according to the two others so using what is considered the two higher grading parties it is still relative no matter how good the source.

 

The problem comes when you think you are buying a MS65 that turns out tobe an AU which si why one needs to have some degree of judgement.I look at coins such as those graded by NNC and automatically lower them by two grades and then look to see if that grade is then justified by the price.

[okbustchaser]

The problem comes when you think you are buying a MS65 that turns out tobe an AU which si why one needs to have some degree of judgement.I look at coins such as those graded by NNC and automatically lower them by two grades and then look to see if that grade is then justified by the price.

 

No, the problem comes when you start depending on someone else--irregardless of the initials on the slab--to make your buying decisions for you. In hand, I have seen more AU coins in MS slabs from any of TPG's on the "approved" list then I have from ALL of the so-called "self-slabbers" combined. (Admittedly, I have looked at more coins in the approved slabs, too, though)

 

No matter what the the slab says if the COIN (you know, that little round metal thing that we supposedly are collecting) warrants the price one is paying then who cares what slabbing company put their plastic around it. This is why, once again I am forced to strongly disagree with Ebay's new policy.

[Houston Investor]

There is no Mother Teresa in the Numismatic Arena. He who has knowledge is king (and predators are abundant) - take responsibility and learn how to grade and price coins or get burned.

 

If you find expensive Classic coins risky - there is always bullion and US Mint products. Lets say you pay $2500 for an expensive classic coin and a few months later need to sell due to some emergency. Will you get close to what you paid for it or at least as much as if you had bought an equilavent amount of AGE's? Who's gonna be the bank for that coin? You may find someone at 65% of CDN Bid (a generous offer compared to many that have been made)......sure you think he's a crook, but he knows better than you how long its gonna take him to move that coin. He's a businessman.

 

I'm a businessman who is only going to buy something like an expensive numismatic coin if I know I can make an instant profit right then and there. I have more than enough classic coins to fill my cases at shows (as a matter of fact they're stacked). Plus I do currency too - stacks of it also. Can't say I really need anymore if retail has been slow. When its slow and you hear them whining, its a good time to have lots of cash...........An old time dealer told me years ago "sell your coins on Saturday, buy on Sunday. If they won't sell to you at your price, let them walk. Sooner or later someone who will is gonna walk up to your table. Then you can flip it and make money or save it as a keeper coin for a better day" How true that is.