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What's considered the ideal MS grade for collectors?

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I'm just getting back into coins from a long dry spell...

 

What's considered the ideal MS grade for collectors? Given the prices and availability, I was considering going for MS64 (NGC or PCGS or raw) for the coins I can afford, and then drop down for the coins I can't afford.

 

Is MS60 a basic uncirculated coin without wear?

 

Yeah, I know these are very basic questions...

 

Thanks!

Mike

 

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It depends on the coin... and a person's taste.

 

MS60 means no wear, but basically as ugly as they come... frankly, an AU58 is really just an MS63+ with a hint of wear...

 

An MS60 will go for much more, but then again, I'd rather have the appealing AU58 instead. It's a game of being better than something else.

 

So for me, I just look at the coin and decide if I like it... others will say MS67, or MS65, or what-have-you...

 

So, I guess to answer your question, the answer is "it depends."

 

Jeremy

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MS - 60 is the lowest level of Uncirculated. It generally refers to a coin that while strictly is Uncirculated, the luster may be impaired (i.e. over dipping), it may have excessive contact marks or hairlines, and generally looks "rough".

 

For collectors, it really depends on the coin series and the price they are willing to pay. In 19th/20th century type under $150, MS-63 will probably be the average grade.

 

The key is really to find the piece you LIKE. If an MS-63 piece looks better to you than a 64, then by all means, snag it. You'll feel much better if you don't restrict yourself to a specific number of the grade, but focus more on the eye-appeal of the coin. Not all 64s (or any other grade) are equal.

 

Also to consider is the color of the coin. In copper do you want Red, Red/Brown, or Brown? While Red is considered top quality, in earlier pieces, this can be suspect of cleaning, and by limiting yourself to red, you may miss a more eye-appealing natural Red/Brown piece. In silver do you want blast white or toned? In gold, do you want a bright yellow or an Orangish Red color? Both are relatively common in may series, but from my observations, the bright yellow coins seem to show more marks on the coin and the Orange Red less (mind you that's just from what I've seen... there is no real correlation between the color and the marks).

 

Look at a lot of coins in the series you like and decide on a budget, then go for those pieces.

 

Currently, I'm starting a new Flying Eagle/Indian Head cent set with an average "to spend" value of $200 per piece. Looking through a price guide, this will let me put together the set in AU-50 or better (the 1877 would be AU-50) because I don't plan to spend exactly 200 on each coin and saved cash on one piece will be used for other more expensive pieces. While I could easily bump a lot of the later pieces up, I'll probably get most of them in R/B color so that the set is at least somewhat uniform in color.

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Quite often the best pieces to buy and hold long term are those where the single point increase in grade results in a large increase in price. This puts collector pressure on that grade and will ultimately drive the price of that grade higher than the lower grades if there is little spread beneath that grade. To illustrate this another way, look at this theoretical price and grade spread-

 

MS63 $75

MS64 $95

MS65 $120

MS66 $5,000

 

In this example, the MS65 grade costs just a small increment over the lower graded coins yet is substantially less expensive than the next grade up. Most collectors and dealers would prefer to buy the MS65 coin because of its perceived value and, hence, there is market pressure on that grade.

 

There are many coins with distributions similar to that example. Some of these are within series collected largely by type and not date. In those instances it is less likely that the "value" coin will increase because the entire type can be scrutinized. In series that are largely collected by date the "value" coin is widely searched for.

 

Above all, buy coins that are superb for the grade and with terrific eye appeal. These coins will likely increase in value the most or fall in value the least. They will also likely be the easiest to sell quickly should you need to.

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As TomB said, many collectors will buy the grade just before the big price jump.

 

Dave Bowers has written a couple of articles on this subject over the past several years. In one, about Morgan dollars, he commented that many telemarketers will push MS-65 coins as "investment grade" to coin "investors" and that, as a result, a wise collector might wish to save a lot of money and buy MS-63 coins, which are almost a nice as MS-65 coins and a whole lot cheaper. (Of course, you should be a picky buyer and buy only the nicest MS-63 coins you can find.)

 

Bowers has also commented that an AU-58 coin is basically an MS-63 coin with just a hint of rub and, as a result, is a much more attractive coin than an MS-60 coin.

 

I'd say that one way to go is to select the coin series you want to collect and then look at a lot of different grades until you find the grade that pleases your eye and budget the most.

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TomB; Great post.

 

The ideal grade varies by series and by individual. One collector might be primarily interested in original surfaces and another in strike or lack of marks. If a collector is concerned primarily with strike then he might find nice gems with marks or surface problems in MS-60 to be ideal for his needs and at a price he's willing to pay. If someone likes pristine surfaces then he might consider an MS-64 that has booming luster and a good strike but a couple small gouges to be a bad deal even at a very low price.

 

Also the series matters. A bust half tends to not be held to the same standard as a large cent by most collectors just as an Ike is viewed differently than a clad dime. What is acceptable on a bust half may not be on a large cent or the dime.

 

Moderns are usually sought in nice choice (MS-63) condition by the largest number of collectors. Whereas a few who get the attention are usually seeking MS-67's. There is little interest in MS-60 moderns and these are difficult to sell despite the fact that large percentages of some issues were released in MS-60.

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Bowers has also commented that an AU-58 coin is basically an MS-63 coin with just a hint of rub and, as a result, is a much more attractive coin than an MS-60 coin.

 

That is most certainly true BUT in reality many of these choice AU coins are ending up in MS62 and 63 holders and, given the grade, are going for a premium above the AU level.

 

That's the world we live in now...the world of "market grading". laugh.gif

 

jom

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Jom: I think that this Market Grading trend is particularly true for gold. Recently, many AU58 sliders are getting into MS61/62 certified holders. I have seen quite a few graded MS62 Saints lately that I would have graded as AU58.

 

Mike: As far as collector grades are concerned, it really depends on your budget and the series that you are going to collect. Modern coins (after 1950) are usually nice and also reasonably priced in MS65/66 grades. Earlier 20th Century common date silver coin pricing varies by series. Barber and Standing Lib. quarters (particularly T-I) and Barber halves get rather pricey above MS63. Nineteenth Century MS coins (pre-1892), are quite variable in price. However, nice (with no problems) AU and even lower grade, coins are always in demand for many series.

 

These are just my opinions. Please consider them as just that.

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I'd echo TomB's advice. The best "value" is at the grade just below the big jump. The premiums being asked for coins in the next higher grade can be very, very significant. Unless money is no object then the best value for the average collector is going to be the grade just below the 10X and up one point grade premiums start to kick in.

 

One question I think you need to ask yourself is whether 80% or 90% of the coins value should be tied to a few noticable but not too distracting marks or dings that separate a nice MS-64 from the MS-65 just above it and priced at 10 or 20 times the price. confused.gif

 

This is no a right or wrong question just a settling in your own mind (and pocketbook smile.gif)regarding your personal preference.

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I have pursued the "Big Jump" price theory on many gold coins. I believe that there is validity in this approach, depending on how many certified coins there are at the next lower level. In the recent (past two year) market there has not been too much movement of these second tier coins, but I believe that the potential is there in the future. I do not buy coins for the short term anyhow. So, I will wait it out.

 

Ready markets are always there, however for these nice just below coins, particularly if they are clean, nice examples. So, downside risk is somewhat small. I also think that there are some opportunities, i.e. MS66 "D" mint Washington Quarters from the '50's. Many of these dates do not have any (or very few) MS67 coins certified. They are in my opinion undervalued. gossip.gif

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ABSOLUTELY.....to me, unless your into gambling on perceived rarities the best pick up is the highest grade before the 'big jump.'

As a few examples, I collect early commemoratives, so I would buy a MS64 example of the Cleveland half dollar, which would go for about 90-100 bucks. The same at MS65 is 240 dollars. I cannot justify that to myself. As for the York half dollar I would buy a MS65 because it rises very gradually from 155 at AU55 to 190 at MS65. For the extra 35 dollars I'd gladly pay it for the superior quality coin.

 

There are of course exceptions to the rule. Remember buy the coin not the holder. I have gotten fabulous MS60-63 for a fraction of the cost of higher grades and they have looked just the same or better, (which is not uncommon). 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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If you just love coins and want to assemble a collection then buy what you can reasonably afford.

 

If you want to invest with the intention of maximizing your returns then you should NEVER buy any coin below MS/PR 64. 65 or above is prefered. If one series is too expensive at the higher grades for you then buy MS 65 mercury dimes or something w/i your budget.

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If you want to invest with the intention of maximizing your returns then you should NEVER buy any coin below MS/PR 64. 65 or above is prefered.

 

I disagree that a coin has to be MS-64 or higher to be an "investment grade" item. I've collected early U.S. and colonial coins for years, and none of the coins in that collection are higher than AU-58. They were all selected as exceptional examples for their grade with respect to eye appeal. Today I could sell my collection for very significant profit.

 

Back in the late 1980s some very foolish "numismatic financial advisers" told their clients that there were two coin markets. One was lower grade coins for "collectors," and the other was the high grade (MS-65 and usually higher grade) for "investors." If you wanted only to have fun, you bought collector grade material. If you wanted to make money, you bought only investor grade coins.

 

Guess what? When the market collapsed, those who bought “investor grade” coins lost a bundle, and in many cases those coins have never returned to those levels. The “collector grade” coins mostly held their own and in some cases have gone up in value.

 

I’m not saying that everything that is expensive is a bad buy. What I am saying is that when the price of an issue gets higher than its collector base is willing pay, and only speculators are buying, watch out for a market crash.

 

In general I’d say that only collectors should be buying coins if holding your own financially is your goal. If you are purely a coin investor, chances are you will not take the time and make the effort to learn enough about the coin market to avoid getting stung. The late Malcolm Forbes once wrote, “Collectors always buy well.” Well, I would disagree that they ALWAYS buy well, but I would say that on average they are better buyers that most people who purchase coins only for investment purposes.

 

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Bill, you're right that alot of people lost their shirts on buying some high grade Morgans and Barber coinage. But look at the price of a ms 65 full band Mercury dime, for example. I think that they were only like five grand back then.

 

Many, many ms 65 coins have appreciated many thousands of dollars since the late eighties.

 

If one would compare the price increase percentage of various grades, I'm sure that one would find that high grade coins bring in the greatest profits, generally speaking, of course.

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Quote:

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Bowers has also commented that an AU-58 coin is basically an MS-63 coin with just a hint of rub and, as a result, is a much more attractive coin than an MS-60 coin.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

I got the wierdest looks when I said that at the ANACS table at Long Beach. A while back I got taken on a SLQ sold to me as a MS63 which had some rub. foreheadslap.gif I asked ANACS for an opinion and the guy says 61. I asked him about the rub and at first he said it would probably pass for MS. 15 seconds later he says "lemee see that again...58". I replied that I'd probably be better off. He and another guy looked at me like I was crazy. 893whatthe.gif

Even though I was initially ripped off, I would rather have a very nice 58 than a dog in a 61.

 

 

 

 

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"I'd echo TomB's advice. The best "value" is at the grade just below the big jump."

 

Same here, the last 1921 Peace $ I owned was a MS63 due to the price jump at the 64 level. Because of the subjectivity inherent in grading, you can often find a PQ example in the lower holder that's superior to the higher grade coin. I'm not paying just for some number on a label. I might go crazy and buy a 66 one of these days, but for a one point (or less) difference it's not worth the premium.

 

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"Crito"

 

Actually, that really does make a great deal of sense to me. The difference between an MS 63 and 64 to a collector is probably the price. Can most collectors really tell the difference? Maybe some of you folks can, but I'm too new to the hobby again. I'm looking at a price sheet for Peace dollars, and the differences in MS 63 to 64 is a whole lotta dollars. That would mean a lot more coins in my collection...

 

Thanks!

Mike 893applaud-thumb.gif

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"Crito"

 

Actually, that really does make a great deal of sense to me. The difference between an MS 63 and 64 to a collector is probably the price. Can most collectors really tell the difference? Maybe some of you folks can, but I'm too new to the hobby again. I'm looking at a price sheet for Peace dollars, and the differences in MS 63 to 64 is a whole lotta dollars. That would mean a lot more coins in my collection...

 

Thanks!

Mike

 

I understand where you are coming from about not being able, at this time, to tell the difference between these grades. If you stick with the hobby and become a true numismatist, however, over time you will be surprised at how well you can pick out the differences in these grades.

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Crack out a bunch of 64's and send them back in to be graded again and you'll realize how many true numismatists can't tell the difference either. The differences between 60-63-65-67 are easily discernable. 62, 64 and 66 are "just missed" grades or bumps for the extremely subjective "eye appeal" factor.

 

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I'm not talking about graders, I'm talking about collectors. Let's face it, if you know the series that you collect or specialize in then you should be pretty darn consistent and accurate in your grading of those series since you are willing and able to spend time looking at the coins. On the other hand, we should all know by now that the third party certification services are businesses and the opinions on their certificates are based upon a quick glance at your coin with generally no time spent studying them. Therefore, this is why I, and others, refer to third party grades as a good starting opinion.

 

The graders can be numismatists but they generally don't care about your coins the way you do.

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Let's face it, if you know the series that you collect or specialize in then you should be pretty darn consistent and accurate in your grading of those series

 

I won't argue that point, especially with early copper, where I'd trust an expert collector's opinion over that of any grading service. Have seen wide variances on regraded slabs, especially in the circulated grades, with those. Even with early silver I suppose. The Adams 1804 dollar had three different grades on it. Went from a PCGS 45 to an NGC 50 and back into a PCGS 58 holder. Of course, grade doesn't really affect value on that kind of coin. But still...

 

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I collect Peace Dollars and have spent much time and effort upgrading many of my key dates from MS63 to MS64. Believe me, there is a perceivable difference in the two grades, particularly with the "D" & "S" mint coins. Many graded coins overlap, but that is because of grading service variability. Another important feature, that is seldom mentioned, with higher grade Peace Dollars is strike.

 

The coins that I have not upgraded, are those where I have not found a nice MS64 coin (1927-D and 1935-S). These two dates tend to have trashy surfaces.

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