Slab Rant!!

[MikeKing]

Bobby..I know this is redundant, but ya gotta buy the coin and not the holder. Bottom line. To hell with who grades it.

[jesbroken]

In the case of uncirculated and Proof, as opposed to circulated coins, it is impossible to have written standards which are precise enough to distinguish 1 grade from the next one up (or down) on the grading scale. The exception could/would be MS/PR70.

 

For example what specific objective written standards would distinguish an MS63 from an MS64 Barber Quarter? I defy anyone to come up with an answer which would address the large majority of examples that most of us would grade either MS63 or MS64.

 

If what you say is true, Mark, then there is no need for any TPG or Consortium-only an NCS to certify the coin as real, as no one can prove that their grade is better or more correct than anyone else-back to the stone age.

[TomB]

In the case of uncirculated and Proof, as opposed to circulated coins, it is impossible to have written standards which are precise enough to distinguish 1 grade from the next one up (or down) on the grading scale. The exception could/would be MS/PR70.

 

For example what specific objective written standards would distinguish an MS63 from an MS64 Barber Quarter? I defy anyone to come up with an answer which would address the large majority of examples that most of us would grade either MS63 or MS64.

 

If what you say is true, Mark, then there is no need for any TPG or Consortium-only an NCS to certify the coin as real, as no one can prove that their grade is better or more correct than anyone else-back to the stone age.

Of course there is no need for any of third party. However, the existance of such third parties facilitates transactions within the hobby/industry. Anyone who believes there is a need for a third party in order for the hobby to exist has bought into hype, propaganda, advertising or whatever one wishes to call it.

[James_OldeTowne]

...but you have to agree, there has never been a legitimate answer as to why NGC slabs do not hold value to PCGS

I believe that the following is a "legitimate answer": In many cases PCGS grades more strictly than NGC does. If you have a PCGS 67 and an NGC 67 in front of you and the PCGS coin looks like it is a point better than the NGC coin, the PCGS coin should sell for more.

 

In other instances, due to a widespread perception (which is incorrect) that NGC almost always grades more liberally than PCGS, NGC coins frequently bring less than PCGS coins, even if they are on par, quality-wise.

 

How many times have you seen a "guess the grade" coin posted where respondents guess one grade for PCGS and a higher grade for NGC? I don't recall ever having seen people predict that the NGC grade would be lower than the PCGS grade. That speaks volumes about perception. And though that perception is often wrong, it is so widespread that it can account for large price/value distortions in the marketplace.

 

and PCGS will boot anyone off their board who doesn't agree with it

 

That made me laugh out loud. Perfectly stated!

[michael]

when looking at any slabbed coin with subjective grading in a third party slab and the fickleness and most changeable market ...

 

you got to first ask yourself how much does the current market and marketing concept value the plastic and particular holder the coin is in??

 

 

 

then ...........................

 

 

ultimately you got to have your own standards and know pricing within your speciality of collecting and ONLY YOU CAN PRICE YOUR COINS either on the buy or sell side

 

with your budget and understanding and only then can you figure out value

 

then if you can do this

 

 

 

you got to evaulate the coin on its own merits----in other words you got to look at a coin in a holder and ask yourself what is this coin currently worth cash value raw in a plain flip to an interested buyer ......................

 

this should tell you mostly what you need to know on the value of any coin

 

then you got to decide what is good for you

 

is the money better in this coin or left folded in my pocket??

 

 

good luck

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Coin]

I'm thinking that I missed something in this discussion....please elude further...

1) Is the question about pricing or grading or both?

A) If about pricing , when -as in the one particular case presented here- there is only one coin graded by PCGS at MS67 and 36-ish graded MS67 at NGC of a particular year/type.............I was under the impression that someone with the funding and ego or 'desire' that was participating in a PCGS registry would probably pay an astronomical fee for any coin in a PCGS holder that was of the highest assigned grade/POP 1 ............because PCGS only allows PCGS graded coins in their registry . Am I wrong about the perception ? I mean , honestly , that is how I "see" the price correlation to the grade to the holder issue....in terms of plasti-nomics .

( I know , collectors have many skins , some like old coins and some like new ones and some like colorful ones and some like'm crusty , and some LIKE being number 1 and will pay for that title....check the pics of some of the top pop 1 coins in sets now and see if they bought the coin or the holder with the magic numbers on it) .....I have absolutely no problems with those that have the means to support a collection with a cost that could support some small starving nation somewhere....really.....to someone of means , their collection's cost is no different than what I have paid for cars I've owned and enjoyed at my means. MOST of those coins are every bit as much worth their price to someone in those magic slabs).

 

B) If about grading , then HOW can anyone make a broad statement of which TPG is more accurate across the entire spectrum of grading.....look and consider all the categories you are dealing with from pine tree shillings to foreign centavos to modern proof Lincolns to Dahlonega mint gold $'s to ad naseum.....what standards do YOU the collector go by.....what someone here says is the final word of what a top coin should be or to what some book says , or some organization.....what SETS a standard at what and each level? ....see if the question is about grading .....well you are biting into a very big apple unto itself.

 

C) If the question was about why one TPGS coin sells higher than another's BECAUSE of the BOTH , then I say does it always or most of the time occur like that?

If no , then it is determined by the MARKET ( more than one soul is buying) BASED upon perception/advertising/opinions .

IF yes , (it always sells for more than another's due to grade) then there must be another reason such as SERVICE , guarantees,(ugh)market perception of grading , limited application(only one kind allowed for a particular purpose and a large market for such), etc.

 

 

2) I am missing something in the original post . Please clarify ( simplify ) the point or quest of ths post please.

Thanks , John

[Coin]

Post PS , I am aware , to be fair , that some coins were obtained and submitted at low or no cost , were discovered , found , already owned and then submitted and encapsulated .....at levels which did not required the owner to be of unlimited means and some top coins are owned by every-day-Joes and Janes at original low costs.....but the post was about selling prices ....not original costs.

[bsshog40]

The topic actually started off as just a rant wondering why market values are so much higher for PCGS slabs than NGC. Then it sort of went to grading standards, and jumped around from there. I think the bottom line really adds up to how many top pop coins are graded by a specific TPG. One in PCGS would make thier coin less obtainable which would in turn increase it's value. 36 in NGC would make thiers more obtainable and in turn make thiers less valuable. I don't really know if this actually effects whether coins are over-graded or not. Maybe more people are using NGC services compared to PCGS. If this was the case in this specific coins circumstance, then it would look as if PCGS had a more stricter guideline for the coin it graded compared to the 36 that NGC graded. Who knows. I think after reading all the responses, it actually makes me think of all the different reasons for the original rant itself.

[Zoins]

The topic actually started off as just a rant wondering why market values are so much higher for PCGS slabs than NGC.

Here are some thoughts from what people have posted here before:

 

(1) PCGS has lower top pops: if you want condition rarities, go for the rarest.

 

(2) PCGS registry allows only PCGS coins, NGC allows both: do you compete in the PCGS registry?

 

(3) PCGS slabs are nicer looking: do you like the dark shadow NGC slabs cast on small coins?

 

(4) PCGS has (or used to have) TrueView, NGC photos never compared: do you want high quality photos taken without slab interference?

[bsshog40]

That was one of my points Zoins. Do more people use NGC for grading over PCGS? I have no idea what these numbers are and am curious. This would also explain the majority of Top Pop coin numbers for NGC over PCGS if this were true.

[Zoins]

That was one of my points Zoins. Do more people use NGC for grading over PCGS? I have no idea what these numbers are and am curious. This would also explain the majority of Top Pop coin numbers for NGC over PCGS if this were true.

I'm not sure if more people use NGC or PCGS but more coins are graded by NGC than PCGS. However, having more coins graded at NGC doesn't explain the higher top pop coins at NGC because people compare percentages not absolute numbers. For ultra modern NCLT, people compare the percentage of 70s vs 69s for NGC and PCGS. For many series, NGC has more 70s per capita than PCGS. The reason why NGC grades more 70s for the same number of coins is subject to debate. Some people think it's because NGC is more lenient than they should be while other people think it's because PCGS is tighter than they should be. There's been speculation that the number of 70s is politically motivated at PCGS which might have some factual support. A while ago the number of PCGS 70s went up after it was decided a certain higher % should be graded 70s based on the US Mint's improved quality.

[Coin]

Thanks Bobby , I think I follow .

 

 

I believe that the real reason (and most people really do not want to truthfully admit to it) that some PCGS top pop coins sell for higher prices is mainly due only to the pop reports in conjunction with their restrictive registry , and the fact that they are holding back on the high grade numbers which creates this effect of demand with little availability and thus the higher prices.....this whole effect has created the conditioned belief ( Hey ! Kool-Aid!) among some buyers that therefore any PCGS graded coin should garner a higher price. (I don't follow this belief)

The exceptions may be the buyers that actually can grade very well for themselves within their niches and therefore will determine what price they are willing to pay for each individual purchase regardless of holder or raw .

Of course , others have different opinions .

One thing that could be considered a constant through-out this entire money/coin/holder issue ....is that the coin in any holder with any grade is still the same coin ....if it gets popped out .

A puchase should be evaluated prior to money changing hands .....for the grade of a coin ....you must be able to grade the coin accurately , but if you can not grade consistently then you either shouldn't buy a coin that you have real doubts over or seek the advice of someone or some company that you feel you can trust to help.

 

[Zoins]

One thing to consider is that higher prices for one brand plastic sometimes leads to higher quality coins in that brand of plastic because crack out artists will seek to maximize their profits by having it in the right plastic.

[bsshog40]

Actually I can see both the points of you (Coin) and Zoins. I have some PCGS coins as wells as NGC same type. I don't see any difference when comparing the same grades as to superior quality of one over the other. Of course, I am by far, an accurate grader. I do believe that the PCGS Top Pops would be more political for the reasons ya'll have mentioned. But who really knows.

[rons]

After reading and mulling this thread over a couple of days I realized this morning an overlooked aspect that may be a factor. The ease of access and use of the PCGS price guide and its inflated values plays a part in contributing to its prices. Many people especially newbies use them and RedBook as a guide when beginning. As you mature as a collector you begin to realize there are other ways to find the value of a coin. I still go to their price guide for an initial value and proceed to heritage or dlrc or teletrade for a more realistic price. However the pcgs price guide is the easiet to use and is way more accessible than numismedia to the ordinary collector. It all adds to the allure and mystic that pcgs has somehow "sold" to the collecting public. It isn't the entire answer but I believe it is a piece of the puzzle. JMHO

[bsshog40]

Good point Rons. As far as I'm concerned, the PCGS value guide is a big deception for the unknowing. It makes people think they have these valuable coins that really aren't that valuable, or it makes unknowledgeable collectors pay the stupid money on ebay. I can look at that guide and I will take off approx. 30% to get me to a realized price. Don't know if this is accurate, but it helps me to determine how much I am willing to spend on a coin unless it's something I can't live without.

[Zoins]

I'll second Ron's PCGS Price Guide being a good point. I almost never see Numismedia being quoted but the PCGS guide is all over the place.

[Coin]

Well , I guess I've been lurking here tooooo long...Great observation Rons ....I completely over-looked the PCGS price guide because I did not look at this topic from a fresh collector/investor POV . I have used their price guide to see what kind of attributions were made for certain year coins , but never go by the ridiculous prices they list .

I have done like Bobby , and searched Heritages past results and then did the % math as a guide to what I could expect to pay at worst .

Perhaps I'll peruse the DLRC one , I never thought to look there. Thanks for the idea .

-John

 

 

[Houston Investor]

The PCGS price guide is very accurate in valuing properly graded coins, and many use it in valuing their coins (tracking their portfolio) from the 4 major TPG's. However, it is merely a price guide and subject to interpretation. I have had no problem retailing nice material at those (PCGS) prices as in most instances this represents what these coins are currently trading for in the market place. As a matter of fact, I know of one fellow who simply inputs those prices into his auction sniper bid on ebay auction items he "just has to have." A major exception would be 70 graded modern material where if the profit is decent enough I am not going to hold out for the "pie in the sky" price guide price.

 

 

 

 

[bsshog40]

I'm glad it works for you Parker, but I have seen too many coins on ebay that never sell for what the PCGS guide shows it to be worth. Classic coins whether they are EAC or silver tend to sell at least 25% below PCGS value guide. You are correct as to modern coins with the exception of modern commemoratives. Most moderns will even sell 50% less than the guide shows and the Comms will usually sell for about 25-30% less. For those that are unable to access guides such as the Grey and blue sheets, or numismedia prices, I think that the PCGS guide is still a decepting guide for valuing coins. I use a coin program for my inventory and database. It gives me updated values for my coins which it gets from the PCGS value guide. When all is said and done, it comes up with a ridiculous total value that I would never be able to sell my collection for. This is where I have to realize the actual values and break it down by actual percentage of it's true value. One thing to remember with the PCGS value guide also is that the market price that is listed may have been for what the sale of one coin of this type and grade sold for. Values get more realistic when there are more of that type of coin sold. This is why, in my opinion, the values can be deceptive.

[CHABSENTIA]

Unless you are a paid member of the Collectors Society then you can't see the Numismedia Price for Coins over MS65 or PF65 which does not give an indication for the Modern Coins.THe Price Guide for PCGS is all there for people to see which probably explains no quoting of Numismedia for at least the Moderns.

 

I was building my Silver Eagles and got some good deals on a few MS70 coins on E Bay several months ago.I used Numismedia as a source as well as Heritage,PCGS and dealers. It is a little difficult for MS70 coins when you are looking at Dealers when you are talking about a MS 70 population of 200.

 

I always check relative prices.The cheapest BIN Price for a 1988 Silver Eagle in PF69 is $49.95 on Ebay. Gainesville Coin has it for $42.00 The MS 70 is becoming higher priced on Ebay . Bins are twice what they were a few months ago.

 

You have to use guides and shop around.