check out this cool & reasonable registry pgcs (makes you think) insight

[michael]

http://www.legendcoin.com/cgi-bin/inventory/cms2.pl?page=hot_topics

 

(thumbs u

 

 

[Zoins]

I agree with bringing back the romance and making sure it doesn't slip away from you during your collecting.

 

But let's not forget that one particular public company is also the one behind TrueView which, IMO, is probably one of the greatest things for collectors that collect for the love of coins (and are not great photogs themselves).

 

I browsed a few of their offerings but nothing has a CAC sticker yet.

[WoodenJefferson]

Definetly a "Ghost Writer" somehow involved here...that article is not 100% by the author.

 

Although I agree with the basic concept of the over-all article, but slamming the grading services over and over again to get the so-called word out is not going bode well when posting something of this nature in any hosted premier grading services chat room.

 

edit: to include "any" because we all know the article was written with one particular grading service company in mind, but the author failed to mention that one, so it's a blanket article concerning all grading services and their registry's.

 

[michael]

please re-read the title which i think you missed

[James_OldeTowne]

I appreciate the author's sentiments, but as often seems to be the case with this author's article, "collector" is confused with "coin buyer". I believe those are different types of people who buy coins. Most every collector that I personally know - and in fact, I can't think of any off-hand who don't fit this profile - do not buy certified coins for the number on the slab. They really couldn't care less about "registry" sets, and see the slabbed grade as an opinion, albeit a very useful opinion. But they don't live and die by the grade.

 

I do know some buyers, however, who are buying coins just to pick up a certain digit in a grade. I'm sorry, but such folks are not "coin collectors" in my book: they are "coin buyers". In my experience, once the rush and thrill of attaining a certain level on a registry set wears off, what is supposed to be a "hobby" becomes more of a drudgery for them, where they "just gotta get a slab with the right number on it".

 

I have a client right now who fits this second category. He is a "coin buyer". He gave me a list of slabs to pick up, and literally doesn't care what the coin in side the slab looks like, just as long as it is PCGS certified.

 

This person to me is not a "coin collector".

 

The author's articles will improve for me once she recognizes this difference. But overall, I agree with much of what is stated given the proper context.

 

Sorry for the long critique!

[IGWT]

So, Legend wants to bring the "romance back," and asks collectors whether "they really collecting for the love of coins or because of slick marketing?" According to Laura, the TPGs "have sucked much of the 'thrill' out of ownership and created a plastic worshiping following." She laments, "[V]ery few great collections . . . are being built for love vs. having to be #1. Is collecting now thrill or ego? And who made the rat race happen -- the grading services! They marketed hard to change collectors attitudes to fit their programs."

 

I don't necessarily disagree with the message. But, I must say, hearing it come from Laura strikes me as a little odd. Let's turn to Legend's inventory pages to read about the romance, to leave ego and slick marketing behind, and to get away from the plastic rat race and back to the coins themselves. Here are some excerpts from just the first two pages (it's too tiring to copy & paste more):

 

A piece well worthy of inclusion in the finest collection. PCGS 1, NGC 3. There are NONE graded higher.

 

PCGS has graded NONE higher. Pop. PCGS 9 / NGC 8

 

Its hard to imagine PCGS has actually graded 3 coins higher. From the Baxi Collection-the former #1 set on the PCGS Registry. We also think these are bit under value as well right now. Opportunity knocks loud now!

 

Only PCGS has graded one finer (which is impounded in the FINEST EVER Buffalo set).

 

Hard to imagine a better one exists-but PCGS has graded one PR69 (which is impounded in Gerald Forsythe's all time finest ever collection). We are pleased to offer this coin for those who collect only the finest.

 

Housed in an old green tag holder-so you know it wasn't a recent upgrade or anything. PCGS 5, NGC 5.

 

. . . and on and on and on. Does anyone else see an inconsistency between words and deeds?

[okbustchaser]

So, Legend wants to bring the "romance back," and asks collectors whether "they really collecting for the love of coins or because of slick marketing?" According to Laura, the TPGs "have sucked much of the 'thrill' out of ownership and created a plastic worshiping following." She laments, "[V]ery few great collections . . . are being built for love vs. having to be #1. Is collecting now thrill or ego? And who made the rat race happen -- the grading services! They marketed hard to change collectors attitudes to fit their programs."

 

I don't necessarily disagree with the message. But, I must say, hearing it come from Laura strikes me as a little odd. Let's turn to Legend's inventory pages to read about the romance, to leave ego and slick marketing behind, and to get away from the plastic rat race and back to the coins themselves. Here are some excerpts from just the first two pages (it's too tiring to copy & paste more):

 

A piece well worthy of inclusion in the finest collection. PCGS 1, NGC 3. There are NONE graded higher.

 

PCGS has graded NONE higher. Pop. PCGS 9 / NGC 8

 

Its hard to imagine PCGS has actually graded 3 coins higher. From the Baxi Collection-the former #1 set on the PCGS Registry. We also think these are bit under value as well right now. Opportunity knocks loud now!

 

Only PCGS has graded one finer (which is impounded in the FINEST EVER Buffalo set).

 

Hard to imagine a better one exists-but PCGS has graded one PR69 (which is impounded in Gerald Forsythe's all time finest ever collection). We are pleased to offer this coin for those who collect only the finest.

 

Housed in an old green tag holder-so you know it wasn't a recent upgrade or anything. PCGS 5, NGC 5.

 

. . . and on and on and on. Does anyone else see an inconsistency between words and deeds?

 

 

Do I see an inconsistancy? With Laura--collector? No, not at all. With Laura Legend--the rare coin retail queen? No, not with her either. They are two different personalities.

 

I feel very much the same way. For example, I have NEVER bought a coin because it was in a piece of plastic with a number on the top. (I have removed several coins from those plastic pieces, however.) On the other hand, if I were a retail dealer in rare coins my descriptions would definately hype the plastic. That's what seems to sell today...and thus the reasoning for her rant.

[IGWT]

Do I see an inconsistancy? With Laura--collector? No, not at all. With Laura Legend--the rare coin retail queen? No, not with her either. They are two different personalities.

 

I feel very much the same way. For example, I have NEVER bought a coin because it was in a piece of plastic with a number on the top. (I have removed several coins from those plastic pieces, however.) On the other hand, if I were a retail dealer in rare coins my descriptions would definately hype the plastic. That's what seems to sell today...and thus the reasoning for her rant.

 

She loses credibility with me when she hypes the plastic with one side of her mouth and criticizes the TPGs and the registries with the other. You don't really deny the inconsistency so much as try to explain it away. I could get away with a lot more if I could blame my conduct on "two different personalities"; but, unfortunately, integrity (in the true sense of the word) precludes that excuse.

[braddick]

Blinders on and putting politics on hold, just reading the topic linked, I 100% agree.

 

Whether it is holding a VF30 Hawiian Commemorative or an 80-S GEM DPL Morgan, coins should make you smile and get that tingling feeling when you do so.

 

Anything outside of that makes a true collector simply a 'gatherer'.

[WoodenJefferson]

please re-read the title which i think you missed

 

I did not miss anything the title of this thread, but you linked an article where you thought it was about PCGS and only PCGS, but the company PCGS was only mentioned as the grading service in this sentence:

 

Quote:

~And I still have the VERY first RARE coin I ever bought: an 1869 H.10. I split it with a friend of mine in 1976. We paid $175.00. Today it is a PCGS PR65-and it is one coin I will NEVER sell.~

 

With this opening statement below, there is no mention of any one particular grading service but the author does mention "certification services" (plural) in the very first sentence and goes on to demeanor their integrity.

 

 

Quote:

~The certification services were the best thing to happen to coins. They still are critical, however they have become too powerful, manipulative (especially through chat rooms), marketing maniacs, and lax. They are causing severe damage to the very core of collecting while being in total denial about the poor quality of the product they are putting out. To the grading services, the game is ONLY about money (especially one that is a public company has no choice). In my opinion, they have sucked much of the "thrill" out of ownership and created a plastic worshiping following.~

 

 

I stand with my original convictions that the author is refering to more than just one grading service or registry.

 

 

 

 

[michael]

I appreciate the author's sentiments, but as often seems to be the case with this author's article, "collector" is confused with "coin buyer". I believe those are different types of people who buy coins. Most every collector that I personally know - and in fact, I can't think of any off-hand who don't fit this profile - do not buy certified coins for the number on the slab. They really couldn't care less about "registry" sets, and see the slabbed grade as an opinion, albeit a very useful opinion. But they don't live and die by the grade.

 

I do know some buyers, however, who are buying coins just to pick up a certain digit in a grade. I'm sorry, but such folks are not "coin collectors" in my book: they are "coin buyers". In my experience, once the rush and thrill of attaining a certain level on a registry set wears off, what is supposed to be a "hobby" becomes more of a drudgery for them, where they "just gotta get a slab with the right number on it".

 

I have a client right now who fits this second category. He is a "coin buyer". He gave me a list of slabs to pick up, and literally doesn't care what the coin in side the slab looks like, just as long as it is PCGS certified.

 

This person to me is not a "coin collector".

 

The author's articles will improve for me once she recognizes this difference. But overall, I agree with much of what is stated given the proper context.

 

Sorry for the long critique!

 

(thumbs u

[michael]

I stand with my original convictions that the author is refering to more than just one grading service or registry.

 

it is mostly 99.999% about ONE SERVICE IN PARTICULAR THAT dominates most of the coin market and registry in regards to slab plastic

 

 

 

but i will end with this

 

 

[michael]

 

Coxe

Master Collector

 

Posts: 7384

Joined: Aug 2005

Wednesday September 19, 2007 2:59 PM

 

 

 

Yes, Laura was a huge PCGS cheerleader for some time. She is completely right on her points in that writing. Still, I doubt she is not influenced even herself in buying and selling based on certification of the potential for it. The problem I see is that there are a lot of people working within this hobby with less collector passion and less mileage who are successfully churning the TPGs like no tomorrow and marketing dreck as treasures. There is way too much in plastic. The majority of what is certified should never have been. No public company who does this is going to discourage that though. MUCH to the contrary. But that is what you get when you have a quarter over quarter earnings gain fiduciary responsibility to shareholders.

 

So we have commoditized widgets and a ridiculous effective sales tax levied by a couple certification companies. They can call it fees but it is today a necessary cost to bear to be able to sell a coin. You have a $50 coin. You send it in economy service and pay a minimum of $14 (modern rate) and shipping. So you have $15 into the coin in fees. That is a 30% tax! We'd be lynching state legislators if the government suggested even half of that. This coin certification game made sense for rarities worth $1000 or more and where authentication was a serious issue and the spread from AU to UNC was significant. Relaxing that down to, say $200 is about as far as one should consider sane. My advice to our ultramodern colelctors is to wake up and forget the submission game. Mint holders are perfectly fine and may be worth the premium in the future anyway. Those guys are the ones bleeding the most IMO. That's where the TPG earnings are coming from.

 

 

[Zoins]

Isn't the value of the slab coming more from collectors than TPGs? Sure the TPGs do the slabbing but they aren't making the market.

[michael]

takes two things to grow a plant sun and water

 

as it takes two to make a coin market

 

collectors to buy the slab

 

but also for the slabbing company to put a common coin in a high grade and contrived yet controlled higher grade plastic holder

 

 

[CRO-migration]

So we have commoditized widgets and a ridiculous effective sales tax levied by a couple certification companies. They can call it fees but it is today a necessary cost to bear to be able to sell a coin. You have a $50 coin. You send it in economy service and pay a minimum of $14 (modern rate) and shipping. So you have $15 into the coin in fees. That is a 30% tax! We'd be lynching state legislators if the government suggested even half of that. This coin certification game made sense for rarities worth $1000 or more and where authentication was a serious issue and the spread from AU to UNC was significant. Relaxing that down to, say $200 is about as far as one should consider sane. My advice to our ultramodern colelctors is to wake up and forget the submission game. Mint holders are perfectly fine and may be worth the premium in the future anyway. Those guys are the ones bleeding the most IMO. That's where the TPG earnings are coming from.

 

 

That is one of the best, most insightful papragraphs I have ever read on the current main problem with third party certification.

 

Bravo, Michael!

 

The certification companies were founded to provide authentication services, and to provide an opinion of grade on coins that "justify" the cost of certification. They do an excellent job of that. Anyone who was buying coins before 1986 will attest to that fact.

 

The folks that will get hurt at some point in the future are those who paid huge premiums for nearly invisible quality differences in coins that mostly survive in near perfect condition anyway.

 

[MarkFeld]

So we have commoditized widgets and a ridiculous effective sales tax levied by a couple certification companies. They can call it fees but it is today a necessary cost to bear to be able to sell a coin. You have a $50 coin. You send it in economy service and pay a minimum of $14 (modern rate) and shipping. So you have $15 into the coin in fees. That is a 30% tax! We'd be lynching state legislators if the government suggested even half of that. This coin certification game made sense for rarities worth $1000 or more and where authentication was a serious issue and the spread from AU to UNC was significant. Relaxing that down to, say $200 is about as far as one should consider sane. My advice to our ultramodern colelctors is to wake up and forget the submission game. Mint holders are perfectly fine and may be worth the premium in the future anyway. Those guys are the ones bleeding the most IMO. That's where the TPG earnings are coming from.

 

 

That is one of the best, most insightful papragraphs I have ever read on the current main problem with third party certification.

 

Bravo, Michael!

 

The certification companies were founded to provide authentication services, and to provide an opinion of grade on coins that "justify" the cost of certification. They do an excellent job of that. Anyone who was buying coins before 1986 will attest to that fact.

 

The folks that will get hurt at some point in the future are those who paid huge premiums for nearly invisible quality differences in coins that mostly survive in near perfect condition anyway.

Dave, I believe that Michael was quoting someone else, so your "Bravo" was awarded to the wrong person.

[CRO-migration]

Dave, I believe that Michael was quoting someone else, so your "Bravo" was awarded to the wrong person.

 

Oops! Well, if you were the one who wrote that, then I disagree with every single word of it!

 

 

Jus' kiddin'.

 

 

Bravo, Mark! Well said, my good man.

 

[MarkFeld]

Dave, I believe that Michael was quoting someone else, so your "Bravo" was awarded to the wrong person.

 

Oops! Well, if you were the one who wrote that, then I disagree with every single word of it!

 

 

Jus' kiddin'.

 

 

Bravo, Mark! Well said, my good man.

I didn't write it either, but will gladly accept your "Bravo" for pointing out to you that Michael wasn't the author.

 

Good to see you posting here! (thumbs u

[CRO-migration]

 

Good to see you posting here! (thumbs u

 

Thanks Mark. I was told this is where all the cool kids hang out now.

 

[TomB]

 

Good to see you posting here! (thumbs u

 

Thanks Mark. I was told this is where all the cool kids hang out now.

 

Dave, very good to see you here and I had not realized I merely needed to purchase an 18th century gold coin from you in order to make you appear! I also agree with Mark that Michael was simply quoting a post by someone on the PCGS boards.

[MikeInFL]

Hi Dave! Don't be a stranger...Mike

[TomB]

Hi Dave! Don't be a stranger...Mike

Too late, Dave's already stranger, I just hope he posts here more often.

[michael]

you are a rela pain in the mark feld

 

 

but i will still take the credit as i posted it and i agree withit and i also thought about it but i cant put it in words as the man i quoted from pcgs bosards can

 

i also acknowledgsaded him too

 

so i am sorry mark feld but bravo for me too

 

man markfeld you sure got a bug up your kiester about me

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

you are a rela pain in the mark feld

 

 

but i will still take the credit as i posted it and i agree withit and i also thought about it but i cant put it in words as the man i quoted from pcgs bosards can

 

i also acknowledgsaded him too

 

so i am sorry mark feld but bravo for me too

 

man markfeld you sure got a bug up your kiester about me

 

 

 

Michael, I wasn't picking on you (this time ) - I was just clearing up some confusion on the part of Dave. In the future, though, please use capital letters for my name instead of "mark feld". OK michael?

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Michael, I wasn't picking on you (this time ) - I was just clearing up some confusion on the part of Dave. In the future, though, please use capital letters for my name instead of "mark feld". OK michael?

 

 

He was looking at a really nice coin one day and spilled coffee all over his keyboard when he saw that special stunner. That's why half the keys don't work, especially all his punctuation and capitalization keys.

[IrishMike]

This would have been a newsflash several years back, did it just dawn on her?

[MarkFeld]

This would have been a newsflash several years back, did it just dawn on her?

Mike, you know it didn't just dawn on her. And if we only spoke about things we very recently became aware of, most of us wouldn't have much to say.