great posting on ms/proof 70 vs. ms/proof 69---- your thoughts??

[michael]

 

jdimmick

Expert Collector

 

Posts: 4121

Joined: Oct 2002

Sunday September 16, 2007 11:51 PM

 

 

 

I basically began by assessing the coin from a perfect 70 standpoint, if I see a tic, spec, discoloration spot, luster break or any other distraction, then I begin to drop the grading points based on what I see using the 9x eschenbach. So basically if I see something , that pretty much eliminates the so called 70 grade for me.

 

The problem I have is if you find one that is perfect, your not always insured a 70 as the tpg will only give out so many anyway, so you may have a 69 coin that has a shot at upgrading, but more importantly, many 70's today if cracked and re-submitted raw probably woulnd't necesarilly go back into a 70 holder the second time around.

 

IMO, a 70 coin has registry driven value only and truly not worth the multiple premiums of a real nice 69 coin !!!!!

 

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i will only add that i happen to agree 100% with this well put statement

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Keleum]

I'd counter that point with this post from the same thread, ATS.

 

Mastering the 69/70 line is no different than mastering the MS66RD/MS67RD Lincoln cent line, the MS65/MS66 Liberty nickel or any other critical grading line where the price moves up sharply between single grade points. Yes, it does take a great deal of work and study to master any of these lines (and seeing a ton of coins).

 

Last Summer, my two kids (15 and 17 now) had the pleasure of spending a sizeable portion of their Summer vacation screening between 10,000 - 15,000 1 oz Buffalo Gold pieces (first year of the series coins) in PCGS-MS69 and PCGS-MS70 holders. Without question, each of them is now a master at understanding the "line" between MS69 and MS70 $50 Buffalo gold coins. They had a unique opportunity to screen nearly $10,000,000.00 worth of graded coins in a specific series over a 60 day time period and learn the nuances of that particular coin and exactly what PCGS was looking for in their MS70 specimens. IMHO, these (2) kids could outgrade anyone out there (even virtually any professional coin grader working at a grading service) in this specific series now and the 69/70 line is SIMPLE for them to determine.

 

I'd still like to know, if there is a dealer/collector who can and does actively distinguish between 69 & 70 on a consistent/accurate basis.

[James_OldeTowne]

As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as "MS-70", so it's a moot point.

 

I have actually examined several alleged "70" coins over the past couple of months and found at least one defect on ALL of them.

[MikeInFL]

I'd counter that point with this post from the same thread, ATS.

 

Mastering the 69/70 line is no different than mastering the MS66RD/MS67RD Lincoln cent line, the MS65/MS66 Liberty nickel or any other critical grading line where the price moves up sharply between single grade points. Yes, it does take a great deal of work and study to master any of these lines (and seeing a ton of coins).

 

Last Summer, my two kids (15 and 17 now) had the pleasure of spending a sizeable portion of their Summer vacation screening between 10,000 - 15,000 1 oz Buffalo Gold pieces (first year of the series coins) in PCGS-MS69 and PCGS-MS70 holders. Without question, each of them is now a master at understanding the "line" between MS69 and MS70 $50 Buffalo gold coins. They had a unique opportunity to screen nearly $10,000,000.00 worth of graded coins in a specific series over a 60 day time period and learn the nuances of that particular coin and exactly what PCGS was looking for in their MS70 specimens. IMHO, these (2) kids could outgrade anyone out there (even virtually any professional coin grader working at a grading service) in this specific series now and the 69/70 line is SIMPLE for them to determine.

 

I'd still like to know, if there is a dealer/collector who can and does actively distinguish between 69 & 70 on a consistent/accurate basis.

 

If there is, I've yet to see/meet/read about them...Mike

[CHABSENTIA]

Really doesn't apply to just a Registry.I will be the first ot admit that I see no difference between a MS69 or a MS70 in the same type of coin.

 

For the matter I don't see any difference in Operation owning a $100,000 Mercedes or a $23,000 Model whether it be a Japanese or American car during the Warranty period. Both are guaranteed during that period.Some people buy the $100,000 Mercedes because it is a Mercedes and some buy iit because they think it performs a great deal better.

 

I do not know for a fact but I have heard that a Coin graded MS70 by outfits such as Star Grading or NES etc will not by the Standards of NGC or PCGS grade as a MS70.If I buy a Diamond from a Jeweler with a recognized pedigree and this person states that it is a certain grade,facet,color etc then it will be recognized by everybody as the real thing.

 

If NGC states that there are 220 1998 A.S.E in MS70 state then people that buy or sell Coins will accept that and bid accordingly for whatever reason. It may be more subjective on a more dated coin such as a Morgan that has been around for over a hundred years as opposed to the A.S.E which has only been around for 20 years and still retains more Luster etc in most cases.I would think that a Coin 120 years old that retained the same luster etc would command a bigger pemium than one only 12 years old for no other reason than population in this appearance.

 

A message else where on the Forums metioned a fact that a person that took a picture of a coin using a Camera and was able to edit spots out shows that an Image means nothing with Scanners that will restore brightness,edit out redeye and spots .

 

This brings us to the message here where the Poster demonstrates that his Children after looking at several thousand Coins can tell the difference between an MS69 and a MS70 so the difference obviously exists.If there are 40,000 MS69 and 220 MS 70 then there were differences and guidelines that made the 220 stand out even if it was on a Relative basis and Coin Collectors are willing to pay a Premium for these 220 that are graded by a Company that is recognized as one of two Premium Grading Companies

[MikeInFL]

I just read that today -- the claim that children can do it. Consider the source and the source of his income -- one has to question his objectivity particularly as it flies in the face of virtually every experience I've discussed or read relative to the 69/70 distinction in ultra-moderns.

 

That said, if someone want's to buy a 70 and pay the asking price then that is certainly their right, but for me, if I can't tell the difference, I don't pay the difference....Mike

[Keleum]

The little diddy about his kids grading 10M worth of buffaloes, aside. Why is he wrong, about the "critical grading line" that would occur in many series.

 

I don't buy the conspiracy theories about a set quota or anything, only because marketing groups are quite schizophrenic, when it comes to make more money vs. saturate the market.

[CHABSENTIA]

I don't think the issue is relly whether Children can do it or not,It seems to be between the MS69 and MS70 Designation.I agree that if you are looking at a raw Ultra Modern and can't tell the difference btween an MS69 and MS70 that you shouldn't pay the asking Price.

 

If you are talking about a slabbed Certified Coin then it depends on your reasons.My understandinf is that there is a Tier where you can send in a Coin to NGC if you think it is over-graded.I don't know of anybody that would pay an MS70 price for a Certified Slab and then send it to NGC with the notatation that they really think it is a MS69 and want it re-graded,

 

I recently picked up a 1989 MS70 Silver Eagle.I paid almost three Hundred dollars less then the Numismedia Price. This was the only place I have seen one offered.

 

I know that I can send any coin into NGC for an Appearance Review if it is in an NGC Holder.I have talked with an NGC rep and If I send in a coin for an appearance review that they have slabbed MS70 and that review says it is not an MS70 then they will either replace it with another MS70 of the same coin or they will pay me the present value of that coin.

 

If I have paid considerably less then my only problem becomes availability. Meanwhile others will recognize it as an MS70 because of the NGC guarantee and it makes no difference as long as it isn't re-graded as a MS69

 

 

[MikeInFL]

What happens to the value of these coins if, heaven forbid, PCGS or NGC goes out of business, and suddenly the grade guarantee is worthless?

[fhcoins-migration]

Modern 69/70 grading is a joke. Why? Simple. Bread and butter classic coins are actually easier/faster to grade. Try grading 1000 morgans vg-67 and its a snap. Try looking for one small tick hidden on a modern near flawless coin and its really a pain in the ***. They charge less for modern grading hence less time spent grading them (business 101 guys!). I prescreen several thousand coins a month for submission to NGC and without a doubt, the moderns are far worse to try to differentiate. Of all the MS70 coins we have received I have yet to pick one at random and actually see no flaws. I have examined approximately 200 or so and none this year passed the 20 second eye test (no loupe or magnifier but I do have 20/13 vision). Moderns are a big moneymaker and if a coin looks perfect after a few seconds it must be perfect, right? roflmao while making money with moderns.

[Zoins]

The one point price differential can be a lot greater for classics than moderns in absolute dollar terms though percentage-wise they might be comparable.

[michael]

well when the fat lady sings the sh*t will hit the fan

 

break any ms/pr 70 coins out of its holder and what is it worth??

 

check out this pcgs registry plastic thing.................

 

this says it all

 

 

http://www.legendcoin.com/cgi-bin/inventory/cms2.pl?page=hot_topics