A Problem Expensive Coin--How would you handle this?

[DC Dawg]

Not long ago, I posted the images of two coins I was sending to NGC to grade. After receiving all my other orders, I called NGC to see where these coins were and find out the grades. Well, the 3-legged Buffalo graded VF-25, which is what I expected--althought I was hoping a little higher, I did not think it would make it.

 

The other was a 1942/1 Mercury dime my wife bought for my birthday in April. NGC is sending the coin back in a body bag for being cleaned. I asked my wife to find the receipt. She paid full AU-55 price for a coin that NGC says is cleaned.

 

Once the coin is in hand, I plan to take it, the body bag, and the receipt back to the dealer.

 

My wife and I have bought other coins from this dealer (no names) and have been happy. But I have never had this type of experience. From the dealers out there... how would you handle this situation if I was your customer and brought in the coin, receipt, and body bag in September for a coin that was purchased in April?

 

THANKS!

 

Scott

[IGWT]

I feel that I assume the risk of a no grade every time I buy a raw coin with the intent of submitting it for grading. It's unfair to subject the dealer to the caprice of the TPGs unless it's agreed up front. There are two choices: (1) buy a slab if you want a slab, or (2) live with ups and downs of relying on your own abilities.

[MunkyMan95]

I agree. Although your wife didn't know what to look for in a cleaned coin, it doesn't sound like the dealer was taking advantage of her. The coin came back in a bodybag, it's not the dealer's fault.

[MarkFeld]

If I were the seller I would probably offer to buy the coin back at approximately 90% of my selling price. That presumes that the market value of the coin had not changed from the time I sold it. I would offer that, NOT because someone/a grading company had a different opinion of it than I did, but rather, because my client wanted to dispose of a coin he had acquired from me.

[WoodenJefferson]

What immediately comes to my mind about returning the coin to the dealer, how does he know that it was the same coin that he sold your wife?

 

This is definitely a case of both parties being honest to a point, but I don’t know of any dealer who will guarantee that any particular raw coin will grade out XX.

 

Hopefully you will be the only client in the store when presenting this dilemma, they would not be very happy about discussing this in front of other customers.

 

Anyway, sorry to hear about the “no grade” and hope everything turns out for the better.

 

Edit: after thought, the dealer could argue the coin was altered after the sale, as in "why did someone clean this dime before submitting it to a grading service?"

 

[ant]

i have come to an agreement with my dealer buddy! if i want something expensive he will let me put half down and send it in for grading. if it comes back within 1 grade from what he said i will keep and if not he now has a graded coin to sell.

 

if he says its a au50 and it comes back a au55 we are good but if it is a whole mark like ms and comes back au its no deal.

 

if it doesnt come back as he thaught all i loose is grading fee! he pays overnight shipping to them.so i pick how its going to be graded.

 

this is an awsome deal and a way to keep both parties happy.if the other party is willing of course

[Mozin]

I gave up buying raw coins many years ago. It is simply not worth the hassle dealing with grading services.

[James_OldeTowne]

Six months is an awfully long time without a pre-set return policy to accommodate it.

[conqueror]

Six months is an awfully long time without a pre-set return policy to accommodate it.

 

What does it say on the receipt on retrun policy?

 

John

[TomB]

I hadn't commented the first time around because your images made me think the dime had been cleaned. Perhaps I should have written something about that, but it is too late now.

 

The coin is authentic, which would have been the one reason to force an acceptance of return on the part of the dealer as long as both parties agreed it was the same piece. However, an April-to-September return without anything pre-arranged would make me view this as an independent transaction that was not necessarily linked to the initial purchase by your wife. Since you appear to have had a solid relationship with this dealer and since the market for this coin has not changed dramatically in the intervening period, I would think that an 80-90% buyback would be very fair. Of course, since this may be a relatively small purchase for some dealers, he may offer a 100% return or credit.

 

Assuming that there was no understanding about TPG certification or other arrangement in place at the time of purchase, that all parties agree this is the same coin and that all parties agree that it is in the same state of preservation then an 80-90% buyback is very fair, in my opinion.

[Houston Investor]

I would be interested in knowing how this turns out.

 

The only raw coins I currently handle either are bullion AGE's or collector coins with an inventory value of $50 or less. My official return policy is 7 day return priveledge on mail order (online) and all show sales are final. However, I have always bought back what I sell (items beyond the return policy) by making my best wholesale offer. Sorry, but I am not in the coin business to fund buyer's remorse or provide someone free inventory to shop around.

 

I would hope he would at least make you his best wholesale offer on the coin. My concern, If I were in your shoes, is what if he retreats to "all sales are final" if shown the body bag? Or perhaps he was already aware it would BB anyway and in that case probably won't want to buy it back.

 

Either way, you need to take responsibility and learn from your mistakes when buyng raw coins (or any coin for that matter). It appears you handed (unintentionally?) this over to a third party who had no knowledge of coins. Would you have bought this coin yourself? If it had graded higher than the dealer's grade would you have reimbursed him the difference? In the bourse areana we take risks in buying a particular deal and sometimes make mistakes. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. You lost - recognize it (take responsibility), learn from it, and move on. Coin deals can be a gamble - good grading skills will improve your odds of winning.

[ldhair]

Being raw and the time involved I'm not sure I would put it back in front of the dealer. He may have something next week that I hope he calls me first on.

 

If the deal was a few days old I would probably go back and ask for a bit of help.

 

[rexcat]

Sorry to hear you got bagged on your coins, finding out your coins didn’t get graded is a big ouch! Especially when it’s an expensive coin.

 

I’ve had this happen to myself more than once, but I don’t hold a dealer responsible for a coin I bought and submitted for grading and it bagged, the onus is on the buyer to know what will and won’t grade with TPG’s, the coin was sold as raw at a price both parties should have felt was fair and also reflected a grade both sides would have agreed to because of the price. Now if the dealer misrepresented the coin to the buyer, there’s a problem.

 

Having a good relationship with a dealer you buy from who is willing to help you minimize your loses or guarantee grading is a real plus for a collector, there are good dealers almost anywhere. A friendly attitude and some purchases is a good start to help you to get to know a dealer who you can learn from and trust to help you collect wisely.

 

Most often you’ll see the prices of raw coins graded by the dealer be lower than the slabbed coins with the same grades he has to offer, once a coin is in a quality TPG slab like NGC or PCGS it become more acceptable to the overall market, (filled with those who can’t grade for sh*t and need to go with the insert), this higher degree of confidence allows collectors to pay strongly without the fear of over paying do to over grading.

 

 

The trick is to find raw coins that the seller has misgraded and under valued, (thumbs u buy them, do the submitting yourself, and reap the rewards from learning what to look for and knowing what it’s really worth…

 

 

[MAULEMALL]

If you do not ask,,, The answer is always no.

 

 

Presentation is always key and perseverance seldom fails.

 

Good luck and as always ,It's a Learning experiance.

[ldhair]

Presentation is always key

Wise words and so true.

[DC Dawg]

To answer some of the questions...

 

I have purchased from this dealer before without issue. I do consider the dealer reputable and, regardless of the outcome, I will probably continue to buy from him. Based on our past history, I am not sure there is cause for the dealer to think that the coin is different than the one purchased--how many 1942/1 dimes does he sell? As for integrity, I do not think I have given him a cause to question my integrity just as he has not done anything that makes me questions his.

 

Differrence on grade... if the coin graded a AU50 or even XF45, I know I would not have grounds to complain. But the assumption is that the coin was bought as genuine and not altered. Based on the market at the time (I found a CoinWorld from April) the price suggests that the coin purchased as genuine and unaltered. This is not a difference of opinion on a grade. This is a coin that a top-tier TPG body bagged for being altered (cleaned).

 

It's that the coin was cleaned bothers me. Sure, I would be upset if the coin came back as XF45 rather than an AU grade.

 

BTW... the 1937-D three-legged Buffalo was bought from the same dealer. There was no guarentee on the grade, but I pretty much understood that the coin would grade VF25-30. Since it came back as VF25, I do not think there is a "legitimate" complaint--and I won't!

 

There are some very interesting responses, which I appreciate. Once the coin is returned from Sarasota, I will bring it to the dealer and see what he has to say. I will be polite and see what we can do. I believe that this was an unintentional consequence. Let's see what happens.

 

Scott

[realone]

Here is my 2 sense even if this post seems to be over. I don't buy raw typically because I have trouble determining if it is bb material or not. But when you go to a dealer to buy a raw coin shouldn't that mean something, like here is a guy who is in business to know coins and that he shouldn't want to sell something that isn't. If he sold you an AU50, then it should be close i.e xf40 throught AU55 and not bb material. Why is it too much to ask that a gentleman who supposedly does this for a living be taken to task and be excpected to know what he is doing/selling, afterall he is the expert and does this day in day out, why can't collectors expect this from a dealer. And if the coin ends upp BBed because the collector happened to send it in to a TPG at the his own expense why can't he be expected to take the coin back for a full refund because the dealer made a mistake and should stand behind his sales no matter what the time frame. Who cares why the coin was BBEd, whether it was for it being not authentic, cleaned, or altered surfaces etc. If a dealer is a dealer and he sells a product that he represesnts is AU then it best be close, but it better not be bbed.

[TomB]

Here is my 2 sense even if this post seems to be over. I don't buy raw typically because I have trouble determining if it is bb material or not. But when you go to a dealer to buy a raw coin shouldn't that mean something, like here is a guy who is in business to know coins and that he shouldn't want to sell something that isn't. If he sold you an AU50, then it should be close i.e xf40 throught AU55 and not bb material. Why is it too much to ask that a gentleman who supposedly does this for a living be taken to task and be excpected to know what he is doing/selling, afterall he is the expert and does this day in day out, why can't collectors expect this from a dealer. And if the coin ends upp BBed because the collector happened to send it in to a TPG at the his own expense why can't he be expected to take the coin back for a full refund because the dealer made a mistake and should stand behind his sales no matter what the time frame. Who cares why the coin was BBEd, whether it was for it being not authentic, cleaned, or altered surfaces etc. If a dealer is a dealer and he sells a product that he represesnts is AU then it best be close, but it better not be bbed.

There may be at least three fundamental problems with your reasoning. The first is that the TPG actions represent an opinion, albeit an educated opinion, that is subject to change or review on the part of the TPG. The second is that simply buying a coin from someone does not guarantee or infer that the coin is "problem-free". Indeed, many coins are sold at what might be considered somewhat below assumed market value because they may be raw coins that are silently net graded due to the suspicion or fear that there may be "issues". Lastly, if a coin is sold with a described grade without the caveat that it is problem-free, then one may argue that there is no implied guarantee that the coin will certify as problem-free at a TPG. In other words, the coin could still grade AU50, if that was how it was described, even if it was cleaned; we see this all the time with ANACS net graded holders and with NCS holders.

 

In my opinion, it is too much to ask of any businessperson to assume 100% of the risk in every transaction and to hold them accountable to the TPG grade for an infinite length of time. To do so would make it mighty difficult to have true cash flow for such a business and might additionally raise the baseline price of every commodity sold to effectively pay for a buyer's "remorse insurance".

[realone]

There may be at least three fundamental problems with your reasoning. The first is that the TPG actions represent an opinion, albeit an educated opinion, that is subject to change or review on the part of the TPG. The second is that simply buying a coin from someone does not guarantee or infer that the coin is "problem-free". Indeed, many coins are sold at what might be considered somewhat below assumed market value because they may be raw coins that are silently net graded due to the suspicion or fear that there may be "issues". Lastly, if a coin is sold with a described grade without the caveat that it is problem-free, then one may argue that there is no implied guarantee that the coin will certify as problem-free at a TPG. In other words, the coin could still grade AU50, if that was how it was described, even if it was cleaned; we see this all the time with ANACS net graded holders and with NCS holders.

 

In my opinion, it is too much to ask of any businessperson to assume 100% of the risk in every transaction and to hold them accountable to the TPG grade for an infinite length of time. To do so would make it mighty difficult to have true cash flow for such a business and might additionally raise the baseline price of every commodity sold to effectively pay for a buyer's "remorse insurance".

 

The OP was not just buying the coin from someone, it was a dealer that he was doing business with on some sort of regular basis and continues to.

If I buy a coin from my dealer I am using his experitise and paying a premium to buy something that is close to the grade whether it is slabbed or not (we are not talking about net graded coins because that is the same as bbed coins).

I f I am charged an AU price the coin better be close to AU. It is implied that it is AU so it should not be a problem coin, it should be within an AU grade (again from XF40 to AU55). If I was charged the price of a VF coin and yet it was said to be AU then there is a reason that the price is much lower, probably because there are problem(s).

What I am trying to say is I am sick of tired of dealers not taking any responsibility toward their clients and anybody that condones this practice of dealer ripping off unsuspecting trusting buyer sunder the guise that the seller who is a dealer under PNG rules is just not seeing things accurately and fairly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

One more suggestion: see if the dealer will take the coin back as a 100% credit toward purchase of other coins. That way, you get 100% of the use of your money, and he still has his sale.

 

Just an idea.

 

PS: I like the dime regardless of the cleaning.

[MarkFeld]

This is not a difference of opinion on a grade. This is a coin that a top-tier TPG body bagged for being altered (cleaned).

In many cases, the determination as to whether a coin is graded or no-graded (body-bagged) is just as subjective and/or inconsistent as the decision regarding what grade to assign.

[MikeInFL]

I'm not sure how I would handle this as a dealer, but I will say this, as a collector -- how the dealer in question handles this situation would certainly effect any future business I would do with them.

 

To me, how dealers handle difficult situations such as this are very telling, and often separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak...Mike

[James_OldeTowne]

I'm not sure how I would handle this as a dealer, but I will say this, as a collector -- how the dealer in question handles this situation would certainly effect any future business I would do with them.

 

To me, how dealers handle difficult situations such as this are very telling, and often separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak...Mike

On the flip side, how the collector handles the situation would affect the willingness of the dealer to have future dealings with him. In other words, if the collector blows this all out of proportion, or refuses to accept any responsiblity for what happened, he might well find himself excluded by the dealer from any future transactions.

 

Just pointing out that it's a two way street!

[MikeInFL]

James, A fair and well-taken point...Mike

[IGWT]

This is not a difference of opinion on a grade. This is a coin that a top-tier TPG body bagged for being altered (cleaned).

In many cases, the determination as to whether a coin is graded or no-graded (body-bagged) is just as subjective and/or inconsistent as the decision regarding what grade to assign.

 

That's a good part of the reason why it would be wrong to force a "return" on the dealer unless there was an agreement on slabbing at the time of purchase. As others have suggested, the better approach is to offer the coin for buy back by the dealer.

[jesbroken]

I will offer my 2cents just because I take a different view upon this. I understand that the coin was bought by your wife as a Bday present and the seller knew you were a previous customer, right? If this was so I as a buyer would feel the seller knowing the collector's wife bought this and might not be as versed in numismatics as her husband, would accept more than normal responsibility. I, as a seller, would also feel this additional responsibility and do something out of the norm for the client. I do NOT the feel the seller has any liability for the coin cleaning causing the coin to be BB'd without a written guarantee to begin with, I just feel the situation calls for an adjustment to normalcy.

Mike, you are absolutely right as regards to presentation and James, I agree with you also as to the buyers actions. Respect is a two way street.