What can the grading services do about the counterfeit slabs ?

[reid1836]

What`s with all the counterfeit slabs I`m seeing lately ? Many very closely resemble older slabs used by the top services, and use their names and logos as well. What`s to be done ? It used to be buyer beware of coins that had been cleaned, now we can add counterfeit slabs and coins to the list as well. Let`s here some ideas on how we can combat this plague on our beloved hobby.

[PerryHall]

If you know how to grade and authenticate, counterfeit slabs aren't a problem. Just compare the coin to the label. If the coin is overgraded compared to the slab label, it's a fake slab or a grading service mistake in which case you should avoid this coin.

[supertooth]

Am sort of in agreement with Perry Hall. If you know your series----and can grade well----you will be able to tell about the coin. And then the slab will NOT matter.

 

However, the collector who might want to buy---but is unfamiliar with the series----might be fooled by both the slab and/or the coin. Therefore, I surely do hope that the major grading services are working to try to prevent the counterfeiting of their slabs. This needs to be done for the unknowledgable investors----as well as the reputation of the TPGS themselves. Afterall, if any slab could be counterfeited, then why would the public trust any slab? The TPGS would become a thing of the past if their slabs aren't trustworthy.

 

With all the science technology of today, those that know plastics and those that know about computer chips etc.etc.----certainly there must be a way to at least slow these counterfeiters down a bit. Maybe the "NEW" slab will end up costing a couple of extra bucks---but it would be worth it in the end. I think that recently at least one service has already changed the plastics of their slabs already. Whether that was because of counterfeiting---or just to allow better picture taking through the slabs---or both---I am not sure. I just know that the plastic looks different.

 

In the meantime, it would be a very wise thing if ALL collectors would improve their own grading skills and their Numismatic education as much as possible. Bob [supertooth]

[Conder101]

What`s with all the counterfeit slabs I`m seeing lately ? Many very closely resemble older slabs used by the top services, and use their names and logos as well.

The only counterfeit slab I know of for an older type slab is the first generation PCGS fake. (a rare and desirable collectible in its own right.) Both of the recent ANACS and NGC fakes have been counterfeits of the current generation of slab. (There has been one possible but uconfirmed case of a fake SEGS slab and there are a very few pieces out there from the Morgan Mint in slab shells that are exact copies of ICG shells. We got that shut down VERY quickly. They now use shells that look similar to ICG shells but are NOT the same.)

 

Do you know of, or can you show examples of other fake slabs?

 

However, the collector who might want to buy---but is unfamiliar with the series----might be fooled by both the slab and/or the coin.

Then they should learn the series, and how to grade it, before they start sinking serious money into the coins. The grading service opinion should be a SECOND opinion, not the primary one. They should make up their own mind about the coin first and have the grading service confim THEM. Until they have the experience they should keep their purchases smaller where if they make a mistake they aren't going to lose an arm and a leg..

[jesbroken]

Make available photos with the certification #'s and ownership. This would at least help reduce the possibility of fake slabs.

[WoodenJefferson]

Make available photos with the certification #'s and ownership. This would at least help reduce the possibility of fake slabs.

 

Then these documents will be counterfeited as well then...to thwart the criminal element or the casual player out of this equation is going to take some real scientific technology. Perhaps that technology exists now, but I don’t think it’s yet cost effective (polarized plastic, retinal scans, finger print scans, etc.) enough yet to warrant these protection devices on all but the most rarest of coins.

 

Look at the lengths the US Government has had to go to recently in order to protect our paper currency! For now, it looks like the buyer is going to have to educate themselves in order to protect their future purchases. I would stay away from International Sellers and only deal locally or with known reliable sellers/dealers.

[MarkFeld]

Make available photos with the certification #'s and ownership. This would at least help reduce the possibility of fake slabs.

 

Then these documents will be counterfeited as well then...to thwart the criminal element or the casual player out of this equation is going to take some real scientific technology. Perhaps that technology exists now, but I don’t think it’s yet cost effective (polarized plastic, retinal scans, finger print scans, etc.) enough yet to warrant these protection devices on all but the most rarest of coins.

 

Look at the lengths the US Government has had to go to recently in order to protect our paper currency! For now, it looks like the buyer is going to have to educate themselves in order to protect their future purchases. I would stay away from International Sellers and only deal locally or with known reliable sellers/dealers.

The above is a somewhat unsatisfying, yet, at the same time honest/realistic/practical answer. (thumbs u

[Conder101]

Then these documents will be counterfeited as well then

Currently the top two services have certificate verification available on their websites. This is not sufficient because the counterfeiter can simply use a valid number on his counterfeit. But if the service also ties a high quality image of the coin, especially if it can be enlarged to match toning and/or contact marks, it would help people to confirm that the coin in hand matches the one that the service saw. This will be of less use as the grade rises through the higher MS grades since there will be fewer and fewer marks to match up. The key will be the quality of the photos and how well they match the coin. One problem is the colors seen on the monitor may not match what you see in real life.

 

This system would have the advantage of keeping the photos separate from but still linked to the coin. This keeps them out of the hands of the counterfeiters. They would have to hack into the TPG site to alter the photos, and it would still only match one coin at a time thus eliminating the opportunity of tying multiple coins to one certificate number. A downside would be that you would have to have internet access to confirm the certificate. A difficulty on the bourse floor, but a decreasing one.

 

It is by no means a perfect solution but would be a good interim step. (Interestingly this is once again a step backwards thirty years to ANACS and their quality photos which could be enlarged for comparison to the coin to make sure the coin in hand matched the certification. The difference being that the potential counterfeiter no longer has access to the original image.)

[notabene-migration]

Both NGC and PCGS have several federally registered trademarks in their names and logos. If counterfeiters are (or become) a serious problem, then a trademark infringement lawsuit could be pursued. If the problem is international sellers on eBay who one cannot realistically drag into federal court, then a multi-pronged approach is probably best:

 

1) educate buyers on what authentic slabs look like; and

 

2) if a newer slab is harder to counterfeit, then offer to re-slab the more easily counterfeited ones at no cost (or severely reduced cost--such as $1 per slab anytime you're already having at least five coins graded.) This way, over time, the old slabs would go away and would become automatically suspect or would not be counterfeited anyway as a counterfeiter doesn't want to appear suspicious--this is fraud after all and that only works if you sucker someone; and

 

3) work with auction sites like eBay to prevent the fraud before the sales are completed. I believe they do this all the time with other industries.

[cpm9ball]

All cell phones made today have built-in cameras. If it were possible to improve the photographic capabilities of these phones, why couldn't the grading companies have a dedicated hotline that you could call to transfer the images of the coin and certification number to the computer database for comparison. It would be possible to access this database no matter where you are on a 24/7 basis.

 

Chris

[reid1836]

You have some excellent ideas there Conder101. (thumbs u