Another Bogus 1807 Bustie on eBay

[edmerlr]

There is another bogus 1807 Bustie on eBay.

 

Normally I do not take the time to e-mail the sellers of bogus coins, but I have seen this specific counterfeit so many times in the last 12 months that I gets under my skin everytime one pops up. I have better things to do than play "eBay police," but sometimes I just cannot help myself. I do not like to see people taken.

 

It is obviously bogus because the reverse is all wrong for an 1807 Capped Bust Half.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1807-Large-Stars-Reichs-Capped-Bust-Half-Dollar_W0QQitemZ290155814172QQihZ019QQcategoryZ11969QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

I tried to give the seller the benefit of the doubt and be friendly when I e-mailed him. Here is what I said:

 

"Hello! This is meant to be a friendly e-mail. You do realise that this coin is a counterfeit? This specific bogus 1807 must have been made in quanity because they have been floating around eBay for about 12 months now. One guy even tried to sell his under 4 different eBay names. If you own an Overton book called "Early Half Dollar Varieties," compare the reverses of the 1807's pictured in the book with your "coin." You will realize that something is wrong. It is blatantly obvious. Compare the tip of the olive branch with the C of 50 C. below on the coins pictured in the book to your "coin." Not even close. The maker of this bogus coin used the wrong reverse die. Yep. No doubt on this one. This is one of the easiest bogies to spot. Regards, Ed Richter"

 

Here is his well-thought out, intelligent response:

 

"Listen I purchased this coin as genuine. I put my own money into this coin. I sell alot of coins. I have sold over 300 coins alone this year. You are telling me by your close observations this is counterfeit. I made my comparisons with the REd Book Rev.Die pictures and see no difference at all. I am fed up with people like you who think they are the E-Bay police trying to find the least little problem with someones listing. Do you think now that you have informed me of your supposed find that I am just supposed to throw the coin away and lose $120.00 of my own money.Are you crazy. Your conclusions only show me that the reverse strike on this particular coin is off. This coin weighs 13.46 grams and is exactly 32.5 mm wide. You tell me. There were so many of these early date coins that were mistruck.

Richard,RFCOINS"

 

...so I guess I was totally wrong, as the seller advises me, the coin was just mistruck.

 

I just wanted to share this with all of you.

 

(Do you collect counterfeit Busties? Here's another one you could add to your collection. ...besides if you buy it, we can get another one "off the streeet.")

 

Regards,

 

Ed Richter

[jtryka]

Wow! You know, I remember before I started to take bust halves more seriously, I was probably a casual collector like this guy, as long as the details were close, good enough! I never know people collected by die marriage (never knew what a die marriage was!), but now it's so easy to see just by comparing any coin to the Overton varieties. To me, even if I was still that casual collector, this coin still just looks off. The surfaces appear to be pewter or something else besides silver, and it appears there is no edge lettering! That should be a big red flag right there! At least you tried, and although I feel for you, the seller's emotional response is not at all surprising.

[MBA101]

That is not an 1807 bust even. I would not be suprised if that is a photoshopped obverse pick, and you do not get a coin when you win, you just get taken.Should be interesting to see what happens. Any true collector would see that there is something wrong. ANd there is no edge lettering!

 

Good grief!

[xJack]

This brilliant character has certainly shown his ignorance in his response.

 

If he's not putting his own money into coins, whose money is he putting into them?

 

I'd throw $120 away ten times over before facing fraud charges for passing a counterfeit.

 

Last time I checked, "Mistruck" coins don't involve the wrong reverse die.

 

Lastly, if he sold 300 coins this year, then he only knows enough to be dangerous. As someone who relies on coin business to feed my family, I have to laugh at his declaration of 300 as "a lot."

 

 

You tried, kudos to you!

 

I've reported this auction - enough reports and maybe he'll get kicked.

[edmerlr]

I forgot to add in a postscript to my posting above:

 

"Check out the seller's credentials on his listing."

 

Regards,

 

Ed R.

[MBA101]

Actually, if this is a genuine counterfit from the 1800's, what is it worth?

 

 

[edmerlr]

Don't ask me. I do not pay attention the counterfeit market re values/prices. (But there are some sales records listed in the back of Steve Herrmans' "Auction & Mail Bid Prices Realized for Bust Half Dollars.") [AMBPR]

 

However, I do believe (without any proof) that it is a modern counterfeit from a Third World Country.

 

It looks like an altered 1809.

 

I am off to take a senior nap. Does any one have the time to compare the reverses of the 1809 Overton plate coins with this coin?

 

...then again. We know that it's bogus. Why bother?

 

Bye,

 

Ed

[Bruceswar]

I like this part....

 

"1807 'Large Stars' Reich's Capped Bust Half Dollar.

 

Lettered Edge. Vertical Lines between words.Red Book pg.181"

 

Look at his pics.. NO letters!

 

 

Also who displays a coin between a pen like that?

[CHABSENTIA]

I have had similar problems.There are a lot of people on E Bay who are either un-informed or don't care.There was a poster on E bay who was selling a Silver Eagle in MS70. It was one of the third rate grading companies shown on E Bay.The heading was " Only a 70 population in MS70 for this type coin".The 70 population was the number for an NGC graded coin in that Date for an MS70.The guy wrote me back and told me that most people do not realize that Grading is subjective by all grading companies and therefore others are just as reputable.etc.

 

I wrote back and was told this seller that if this was the case then since he claimed a 70 population that all he had to do was point me to or show me a population report for this Grading company that showed a 70 population.The guy wrote me back that he didn't have to show me anything and that if I didn't stop writing him that he would turn me into E-Bay for harassment and furthermore he was going to black list me from his Bidding list.

 

I checked back a few hours later and either he removed the Coin or sold it becuase it was no longer on the site.Some people just don't care as long as they make the Money such as those trying to sell a 1999 Silver Eagle First Strike for $895.00.

[okbustchaser]

It is a cast counterfeit. Someone took a genuine 1809 O-103, altered the date, and created (it appears) several of them. They have been popping up on Ebay since at least last summer.

[edmerlr]

Here's what FEVER said on the forum across the street:

 

"Another of the VERY SAME Chinese Counterfeit 1807 Capped bust Half dollars has shown up on ebay. It is made from an 1809 (O-102 or O-103). It's a "dentil mold" piece (probably spun in a centrifuge). The last number in the date was altered on

the first cast and then remolded. This is ONE OF THE SAME group of these thing that keep popping up on ebay every other week.

 

One of our forum members contacted the seller and he emailed him back giving him the typical "somewhat snotty" line. It's the right size, I saw it in the Redbook, etc. (If this member wishes to post this joker's response - he can feel free to do so here). You might also want to note this sellers ebay ID and block him out when you check his auction page.

 

It is the wrong design type and not the original design type of 1809 - 1812. Wrong Eagle, Wrong Liberty. I don't want a novice to get stung with this piece by a "so-called ebay seller".

 

We could more people to contact ebay and force to pull it down. Here is the correct process to do so, so they ACTUALLY get your email.

 

First Click - Contact Us >

then - Listing Violations >

then - Fraudulent Listing >

then - You Suspect a Listing is Fraudulent but didn't bid.

then - This leads you to a page where you copy the in item number down (in

this particular case it's (290155814172)

then - write your complaint

 

I already wrote them but we need more. I also told them this does not put ebay in a good light with collectors and that it is being discussed. I also told them that any bidders would be contacted that it is bogus. I also told them it will be posted to the coin forum boards.

 

Edgar"

[Stanley]

I want to be polite about this however the description indicates the seller is an NGC Collectors Society member. I hope we are correct in our assessment of the CBH.

 

ANA#XXX6409/PCGS Platinum Club #XXX958

Coneca#N-XXX0/NGC Collectors Society #AXXX83

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Actually, if this is a genuine counterfit from the 1800's, what is it worth?

If it were a contemporary die-struck counterfeit, then as pictured, this would be a very valuable coin - far more valuable than a genuine piece. It would have to have been struck off of at least one stolen Federal die. I have seen such a piece sell for around $1000.

 

However, this looks like a common cast counterfeit, so I would pay no more than $2 for it.

[MBA101]

Actually, if this is a genuine counterfit from the 1800's, what is it worth?

If it were a contemporary die-struck counterfeit, then as pictured, this would be a very valuable coin - far more valuable than a genuine piece. It would have to have been struck off of at least one stolen Federal die. I have seen such a piece sell for around $1000.

 

However, this looks like a common cast counterfeit, so I would pay no more than $2 for it.

 

So $1.29 is a good price then?

[edmerlr]

I want to be polite about this however the description indicates the seller is an NGC Collectors Society member. I hope we are correct in our assessment of the CBH.

 

I would normally agree!

 

...but in this case it is beyond the shadow of a doubt.

 

The seller says that he bought the coin as genuine and paid $120 for it.

 

If one only had to pay $120 for a real 1807 in this apparent grade, then a red flag should gone up. An 1807 is not this inexpensive, unless there is a problem with the coin.

 

Haven't we all made at least one mistake in our coin collecting lifetime?

 

If the seller is sincere, then he simply made a "boo-boo."

 

(This is beside the point, but as a NGC Collectors Society member, perhaps he might have responded to my intital e-mail to him in a different tone?)

 

As far as my emotions: no harm, no foul.

 

I simply felt the forum members should be aware of this eBay listing.

 

Ed R.

[MBA101]

We love hearing about these ebay listings, but one thing is for certain, these fraudulent listings occur far too often. And it seems like every time I visit the ebay coin listings, I find many. So now I tend to completely avoid that site, just because it bothers me to see them.

[Conder101]

If it is based on an 1809 it is not O-106. The reverse positions of the 5 and the C do not match. It is a much better match for Rev A (O-101, 102, and 110) The Obv appears to me to be a best match for O-101. The key is the positioning of stars 9 and 10. On O-110 point 3 of star 9 points at the body of point 5 of star 10. On the fake it points past the point of point 5. That matches O-101 and 102. On 101 those points are far apart, on 102 they are close together. On the fake they are far apart.

[edmerlr]

And it seems like every time I visit the ebay coin listings...So now I tend to completely avoid that site...

 

I am so glad to hear this.

 

This means that I don't have to worry about you cherrypicking the "goodies" out from under me.

[MBA101]

And it seems like every time I visit the ebay coin listings...So now I tend to completely avoid that site...

 

I am so glad to hear this.

 

This means that I don't have to worry about you cherrypicking the "goodies" out from under me.

 

I got enough going to keep me busy for now...

[Stanley]

As a Collector Society Member it does seem the seller would respond in a more compliant way.

Not to even mention the other numismatic affiliations.

 

[MikeKing]

the obverse is all wrong too

[RUSS BEGA]

There is another bogus 1807 Bustie on eBay.

 

Normally I do not take the time to e-mail the sellers of bogus coins, but I have seen this specific counterfeit so many times in the last 12 months that I gets under my skin everytime one pops up. I have better things to do than play "eBay police," but sometimes I just cannot help myself. I do not like to see people taken.

 

It is obviously bogus because the reverse is all wrong for an 1807 Capped Bust Half.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1807-Large-Stars-Reichs-Capped-Bust-Half-Dollar_W0QQitemZ290155814172QQihZ019QQcategoryZ11969QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

I tried to give the seller the benefit of the doubt and be friendly when I e-mailed him. Here is what I said:

 

"Hello! This is meant to be a friendly e-mail. You do realise that this coin is a counterfeit? This specific bogus 1807 must have been made in quanity because they have been floating around eBay for about 12 months now. One guy even tried to sell his under 4 different eBay names. If you own an Overton book called "Early Half Dollar Varieties," compare the reverses of the 1807's pictured in the book with your "coin." You will realize that something is wrong. It is blatantly obvious. Compare the tip of the olive branch with the C of 50 C. below on the coins pictured in the book to your "coin." Not even close. The maker of this bogus coin used the wrong reverse die. Yep. No doubt on this one. This is one of the easiest bogies to spot. Regards, Ed Richter"

 

Here is his well-thought out, intelligent response:

 

"Listen I purchased this coin as genuine. I put my own money into this coin. I sell alot of coins. I have sold over 300 coins alone this year. You are telling me by your close observations this is counterfeit. I made my comparisons with the REd Book Rev.Die pictures and see no difference at all. I am fed up with people like you who think they are the E-Bay police trying to find the least little problem with someones listing. Do you think now that you have informed me of your supposed find that I am just supposed to throw the coin away and lose $120.00 of my own money.Are you crazy. Your conclusions only show me that the reverse strike on this particular coin is off. This coin weighs 13.46 grams and is exactly 32.5 mm wide. You tell me. There were so many of these early date coins that were mistruck.

Richard,RFCOINS"

 

...so I guess I was totally wrong, as the seller advises me, the coin was just mistruck.

 

I just wanted to share this with all of you.

 

(Do you collect counterfeit Busties? Here's another one you could add to your collection. ...besides if you buy it, we can get another one "off the streeet.")

 

Regards,

 

Ed Richter

 

shameless people trying to make a buck......

[lkenefic]

I have a remarkably similar story about an 1893-S Morgan dollar. I tried to explain how the coin he was trying to sell as a genuine 1893-S was actually a tooled 1898-S VAM-11. His response: "Nice try, I offer a full refund". So go figure... the chances are that when that particular coin sold for a mere $1700 the buyer will think he got something of a deal. Only years later when he goes to sell it will he realize his error. At that point, the original purveyor of this POS will be long gone. Even if the person realizes his mistake and returns the coin, there's always the dreaded "second chance offer" or the "now relisted" item function so pervasive on ebay. This 1807 Bust Half is just one of the many... L

[harvey8542]

What do you guy's think of this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140152701454&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fws%2Fsearch%2FSaleSearch%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26satitle%3D140152701454%26sacat%3D-1%2526catref%253DC5%26_trksid%3Dm37%26from%3DR7%26nojspr%3Dy%26pfid%3D0%26fsop%3D1%2526fsoo%253D1%26fcl%3D3%26frpp%3D50%26fvi%3D1

[MBA101]

If you can trust the seller, it has potential. Though it is more of an XF40 or 45 than AU, and being raw, maybe worth around $1400 or so. The last XF 45 at heritage went for about that much a month ago.

[okbustchaser]

Nice looking coin...I do think that it is a little "optimistically graded", though.

[edmerlr]

(Well, at least we know it's not a Bogie.)

 

Yea, I'm watching this one too! I will probably not participate in the bidding, but I am curious as to the price realized.

 

I smile whenever I see eBay listers - like this one - post past auction prices for PCGS and NGC coins. The lister never remind us that (1) the auction prices usually include a 10 or 15% buyer's fee, and (2) raw coins do not sell for as much as slabbed coins. (Sad, but often true.)

 

I do not think I agree with the seller's grade of AU-50+. With these old Busties that were often softly struck on the obverse and weakly or flatly struck on the left wing, I find myself staring at the right wing, the shield and the talons to figure out the grade.

 

In the coin's photos - and they are not bad photos - I cannot tell of the flatness on the right wing is from circulation wear or strike. The talons certainly seem to be worn. Ignoring the toning spot and the obverse ding I am leaning towards an EF-45. I am not sure if I want to say EF45+ or EF45-. Is the ding enough to knock for grade? Perhaps it should be net 40? Shout me down, if you disagree.

 

I like the dark toning, but I am not 100% confortable with it. I wish I could see the coin in hand. My gut feeling - and I could be VERY wrong - is that the coin was lightly dipped long ago and has retoned. Are there hairlines under the toning? The photos do tell us this.

 

I think this is one of those coins where the price could go anywhere.

 

For a comparison here is an O-114 that I bought raw on eBay as an AU-50 in Sept. 2005. It has never been sent to a TPGS: (PM me if you want to know what I paid for it.)

 

[James_OldeTowne]

What do you guy's think of this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140152701454&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fws%2Fsearch%2FSaleSearch%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26satitle%3D140152701454%26sacat%3D-1%2526catref%253DC5%26_trksid%3Dm37%26from%3DR7%26nojspr%3Dy%26pfid%3D0%26fsop%3D1%2526fsoo%253D1%26fcl%3D3%26frpp%3D50%26fvi%3D1

I think that's a strict VF-35, and a loose EF-40. Either way, it's a very nice coin with great, original surface quality.

[lkenefic]

What do you guy's think of this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140152701454&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fws%2Fsearch%2FSaleSearch%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26satitle%3D140152701454%26sacat%3D-1%2526catref%253DC5%26_trksid%3Dm37%26from%3DR7%26nojspr%3Dy%26pfid%3D0%26fsop%3D1%2526fsoo%253D1%26fcl%3D3%26frpp%3D50%26fvi%3D1

I think that's a strict VF-35, and a loose EF-40. Either way, it's a very nice coin with great, original surface quality.

 

It might be my hackels raised but does this look like shill bidding??? What is the probability of random bidders using astrisks in all of their handles? I***t mu***st ju***st b***e m***e...

[MarkFeld]

What do you guy's think of this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140152701454&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fws%2Fsearch%2FSaleSearch%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26satitle%3D140152701454%26sacat%3D-1%2526catref%253DC5%26_trksid%3Dm37%26from%3DR7%26nojspr%3Dy%26pfid%3D0%26fsop%3D1%2526fsoo%253D1%26fcl%3D3%26frpp%3D50%26fvi%3D1

I think that's a strict VF-35, and a loose EF-40. Either way, it's a very nice coin with great, original surface quality.

 

It might be my hackels raised but does this look like shill bidding??? What is the probability of random bidders using astrisks in all of their handles? I***t mu***st ju***st b***e m***e...

The "random" asterisks have nothing to do with shill bidding - it is Ebay's new/different way of protecting bidders' identities.