1816-1857 Large Cent Help

[NTNtrivia]

While getting ready to start my Registry Set in the "Typeset" category I ran into what I perceive as a problem/omission.

The years 1816 through 1857 (Large Cent, Coronet) are divided into two groups, 1816 through 1839, and 1839 through 1857.

But isn't there a transition design between those two groups?

I thought the 1835-1839 range was significantly different.

 

And my available resources can't agree either.

Coin Values and the Greysheet have it split at 1835; the Red Book and the ANA Grading Guide have it split at 1839.

It appears that the powers-that-be are not in accordance.

 

Is there a definitive authority?

If so, what is their judgment?

 

(I have a coin from each of the three groups.)

 

And based on my difficulty here, I can see potential problems elsewhere.

[rbrown4]

I am by no means an expert on Large Cents but the way I understand it is that from 1816 to 1857 they are all Liberty Head or as some call it Coronet. From 1816 to 1836 it is called the Matron Head. From 1837 to 1839 it is called the Modified Matron Head and from 1839 to 1857 they are called Braided Hair Cents. As far as Coin Values, they just do not go into as much detail on the splits, you can see though that 1836 to 1839 the varieties listed consist of differences in the head.

 

Hope that helps some.

 

Rey

[TomB]

Howdy and welcome. This is an excellent question, but I do not know if there is a universally accepted definition for type coins within this series and period of time. The portrait of Ms. Liberty changes dramatically at 1835 and appears to be modified several times into the 1840s. The break that NGC uses of 1839 or so might reflect the fact that the reverse was also modified at this later date.

[BillJones]

Yes, in a sense you are right. But if you look at the rest of the type coin list, you will see that there is only one space for the State Quarter series, one spot for all of the modern nickels that the mint has issued and one spot for the presidential dollars. These coins, from a design perspective, are more radical than the evolutionary changes that could be noted in the late 1930s large cent series. And if you want to get really technical, there could be other type changes in the 1794 to 1797 half cent series that could also be recognized.

 

I’ll be honest with you. I’d like to get to 99% completion on my type set. I can’t afford the 1796-7 half dollar even in an NCS holder which could not be registered. In other words a coin that would cost me tens of thousands of dollars is not welcome on the NGC registry. That's the 1% I can't afford. I’ve grown tired of adding more coins on a minor whim.

 

I’ve collected the minor large cent varieties that you mentioned in the past. They did not count for anything, and I really don’t want to see them around on the list again given that some other modern coins that are not on the list have been excluded from it. Type collecting has become less than fun given all the modern that we now see. I don’t want to see the type coin list expanded any further unless it’s a coin that is of historical significance. Those minor design adjustments that occurred in the late 1830s should not qualify IMO. They did not qualify many years ago as types, and they should not qualify now as types.

 

[NTNtrivia]

Well, the whole thing just became moot.

To do a NGC Registry Set properly, I have to get the coins slabbed with the appropriate variety attribute.

My 1820 Large Date cent comes in 6 varieties.

And it's in a PCGS holder.

So I'd have to have it re-holdered into an NGC slab plus the $7 to have it attributed.

 

When I look at the rest of my typeset, I'm looking at $1000+ to get it fixed.

Guess what?

No way!

[Hoot]

The most significant accord that one can find in the transitional period of 1835-39 is found in references that examine the emissions of those years by die marriages (varieties). However, there are several significant types (actually subtypes) in the period of 1835-39, and it's one of the periods of time that fascinates me the most with respect to all U.S. coinage. For the cents, there are the following major subtypes:

 

1) Matron head cents of 1835, design of Robert Scot.

2) Kneass's modified matron head cent, sometimes called the "head of 1836" for the sake of clarity. This cent is significantly different from Scot's, and is a precursor to the Gobrecht transitional cents of 1839. The cords in Liberty's hair are plain and occur in varieties from 1835-37, and one emission of 1839 (actually an overdate of 1839/6).

3) Kneass's modified matron head of 1837 with beaded cords, often called the "head of '38" cents. Quite a beautiful form that occurred only in the years of 1837-39.

 

In 1839, Kneass's designs were phased out and replaced by experimental designs of Gobrecht. Gobrecht produced three major types that year:

 

4) The "silly head" cents of 1839 are quite similar to Kneass's head of '38, but each have a larger head and a distinct brow lock of hair.

5) The "booby head" varieties of 1839 have Liberty lurching forward and an awkward shoulder exiting Liberty's curls to the rear. Liberty is pleasantly goofy looking in the booby head varieties.

6) The "petite head" cent of 1839 is Gobrecht's master work and is the first of the so-called modern "coronet cents" that "matured" in 1843 until the end of the series. The image is delicate and there is but one variety in 1839.

 

Thus, there are six major types, properly called subtypes of coronet Liberty cents in the transitional period of 1835-39. Although difficult, ALL of the subtypes can be collected from 1839 alone! It's a magnificent set to consider and to collect, but it is poorly embraced, except among copper lovers.

 

Hoot

[NoTwilight]

It's a magnificent set to consider and to collect, but it is poorly embraced, except among copper lovers.

 

Hoot

 

Hoot,

I recently (this week) picked up and posted my first braided hair cent and have now decided to put together a 1793 to 1857 large cent set. I've been chatting/conspiring about it with MikeinFL this weekend. I'm sure I'll be calling on your help too (as I have been very thankful for in the past).

 

Copper uber alles!!!

 

Take care,

 

--Jerry

[BillJones]

Well, the whole thing just became moot.

To do a NGC Registry Set properly, I have to get the coins slabbed with the appropriate variety attribute.

My 1820 Large Date cent comes in 6 varieties.

And it's in a PCGS holder.

So I'd have to have it re-holdered into an NGC slab plus the $7 to have it attributed.

 

When I look at the rest of my typeset, I'm looking at $1000+ to get it fixed.

Guess what?

No way!

 

The varieties of 1920 large cents would never be viewed as type coins. The coins they are referring to here were minted in the late 1830s. They were a transition types which in a sense are as significant as say the Type I and Type II Buffalo nickels and Standing Liberty quarters. Still in the scheme of things they have had little play among type collectors.

 

And yes, I’m with you. I don’t want to have them added to the type set charts as a “requirement.”