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Artificial toning on gold

Started by nwcs,

70 posts in this topic

jtryka

jtryka

Posted
Posted

jom, I think you just have to look at each series differently, from what you mention on the smaller denominations, it really doesn't coincide with what I see in Saints. In this series, the early coins (1908-11) seem to be not as good as later ones, but still superior to P and D coins. after a year off in 1912, the quality seemed to improve dramatically, and the 1913-16 S-mint coins seem to be the best in the series. As for the 1920s and 1930s, I honestly haven't seen enough examples to make any judgement.

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Oldtrader3

Oldtrader3

Posted
Posted

nwcs: You asked for it and here are pics. Attached is pink toning. Image is poor, please excuse quality.

 

This 1910-S is the only MS64 Saint. All others are MS65. Typically, "S" coins have more green toning, "D" more pink toning and "P" Gold or Pink toning. This is not absolute, as you can see from the pictures. Any mint can be any color.

258509-10-S.jpg.d6011ed8ae200d3f166c6c416750115a.jpg

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted

jom, I think you just have to look at each series differently,

 

confused-smiley-013.gif Oh well. I tried. I guess it varies from series to series and coin/metal etc. I do not know the $20 series at all except I know Philly coins up in the 20s are VERY common up to 1928.

 

Oldtrader: I don't see any different in the color of the first two conis. What is "green" gold exactly? I''ve never had anyone explain that to me before.

 

EDIT: Let me rephrase. I don't see much toning (color) different from the 1911 and the 1908.

 

jom

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Oldtrader3

Oldtrader3

Posted
Posted

By the way, here is a better image of pink toning.

 

Jom: The green toning is in the central portion of the coin (the dark part). I would reimage, but my Saints are in a Safe Deposit Box 70 miles away. If you tip the coin in the light the dark portion turns dark green.

258546-15-S.jpg.fbeb37b37581f9e4b27d6d6edda5106c.jpg

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted

Sorry, OT, but that QE just looks a dark orange to me. I guess I'm color blind. It's probably just the scan though.

 

How about these QE's?

 

QE's

 

How would you describe the color on these? 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

jom

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted

I love it! The battle of the toned gold! If you guys keep it up, I'll go bankrupt trying to buy more gold.

 

lol...how can one go "bankrupt" buying gold? That's pretty funny if you think about it. laugh.gif

 

As to the "battle" of Saints: jtryka and OT kick my when it comes to Saints. 893whatthe.gif

 

jom

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Oldtrader3

Oldtrader3

Posted
Posted

Your 08-P is probably green if tilted (hard to tell with the reflection). The 23-P is gold toned.

 

My later scans are done with help of white Halogen light source. That is why I could not get the green color in the 23-D. It was done with old scanner.

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

Posted
Posted

BTW, guys, if you want to see a nice spread of original gold vs unoriginal ones, just look at the Bass stuff vs the Trompeter stuff.

 

Or, for less rarified stuff, look at original rolls of mid-grade UNC common date Saints and you'll see what two-toned gold should look like! If you can look past the bagmarks, they really are quite lovely like that.

 

EVP

 

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jom

jom

Posted
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Your 08-P is probably green if tilted (hard to tell with the reflection). The 23-P is gold toned.

 

Actually, I think they both are. If you look at the 08 you'll see a large area that is lighter on the obverse (bottom half). That area has a blueish cast. I'm guess here but that might be what you call "green" (???).

 

On the far left on the 23 you see a small area on the obv (within the "rays") AND probably in the center area on liberty that is also a "blueish" cast.

 

Dunno....just trying to figure it out! laugh.gif

 

jom

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted
BTW, guys, if you want to see a nice spread of original gold vs unoriginal ones, just look at the Bass stuff vs the Trompeter stuff.

 

Anyone know where you can see good pics of these? I "think" I have the Trompeter catalog. From Superior, right?

 

BTW, what was wrong with Trompeter's coins anyway? I've heard bad things....

 

jom

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Oldtrader3

Oldtrader3

Posted
Posted

I do not think that NGC or PCGS is particularly sensitive to gold toning or to the lack of it. I think that it is a function of alloy purities (or impurities), combined with inter-molecular heat during striking that causes the toning.

 

I noticed, as a teenager when I visited the old mining ore-dumps (Malartic Highgrade, Val D'Or, et al) in northern Canada, that even unrefined free gold in quartz/diorite or free nuggets were often slighly different colors due to impurities of lead, copper, zinc, silver, cobalt etc. (they are about 90% pure). Refining produces about 99.98% pure gold, but this combined with adding back 10% copper (with it's own impurities) probably determines toning color as does alloying process integrity (copper spotting).

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jtryka

jtryka

Posted
Posted

Jom,

 

Your 27 Indian looks from the scan to have some nice rose hues, and I must say your 23 Saint is gorgeous! I am really jealous thumbsup2.gif

 

I think what all of these scans have shown (at least to me) is that gold definitely doens't tone to the extent of base metals, but instead takes a gentler form that is often very difficult to discern without holding the coin in your hand.

 

Since we are in the sharing mood, I'll share some of mine. I cannot really comment on the toning on mine, since I honestly can't remember, but I will try to illustrate some of the differences between the three mints.

 

First a couple of my favorites:

1915-S (MS-63) Obverse

1915-S Reverse

1916-S (MS-65) Obverse

1916-S Reverse

 

And an earlier S-mint:

1909-S (MS-63) Obverse

1909-S Reverse

 

Some D-mints:

1910-D (MS-64) Obverse

1910-D Reverse

1914-D (MS-63) Obverse

1914-D Reverse

 

And finally some P-mints:

1908 NM (MS-64) Obverse

1908 NM Reverse

1914 (MS-62) Obverse

1914 Reverse

1920 (MS-63) Obverse

1920 Reverse

1927 (MS-64) Obverse

1927 Reverse

 

I hope that illustrates something, but after all that cutting and pasting and linking, I forgot my point. confused-smiley-013.gif And if this prompts nwcs to go bankrupt, I cannot be held responsible! foreheadslap.gif

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jtryka

jtryka

Posted
Posted

Oh, and I forgot, for some nice photos of the Trompeter and other famous gold collections, check out www.coinfacts.com and browse through their gold listings, they have many great photos of the older pedigreed coins to illustrate types and individual dates.

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truthteller

truthteller

Posted
Posted

The only thing that bothers me about gold is the sight seen versus sight unseen market for slabbed gold. One little copper speck on the denticles or field and ZAP, dealers will put it the SUS category. Can be a PQ coin, but no.

 

TRUTH news.gif

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Oldtrader3

Oldtrader3

Posted
Posted

Some of my lower graded BU 20th Century Half Eagle Registry coins have copper spots. I have been thinking about whether I want to send them for conservation or not. Most of these Half Eagles have (otherwise) nice original surfaces and I have conflicting issues here of originality vs. marketability.

 

Also, I do not know what the removal of the copper will do to the surfaces of the coin (re: Trompeter). Gold is attacked by some acids and I would hate to receive a porous surfaced or unaturally colored coin back as "conserved".

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted

Your 27 Indian looks from the scan to have some nice rose hues

 

Speaking of 27, your 27-P Saint kicks buns. It seems a higher grade than 64... 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

As to spots: I guess if the dealers are being picky that really only means the majority of collectors are. Spots don't bother me (to a point) and the other "blight", rim dings, don't bug me too much either. Being lack-luster it a problem with me however. Also, if the coin is just some common looking gold color I won't buy...unless it is a better date and has good luster. Picky picky picky 893blahblah.gif893blahblah.gif

 

jom

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darktone

darktone

Posted
Posted

oldtrader, don't go the dipping route with your gold to remove spots or for any other reason. The process will destroy the coins original surface and leave you with that over bright just dipped gold look and in my opinion this ruins the coin. Nobody can dip these and leave them looking original- also the brighter the coin the more every little tick will stand out and make the coin look worse than it really is. I actually look for copper spots as a sign of originality and I think they can be very attractive. mike

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