VAM question ?

[conqueror]

1922 VAM ll I don't know what i'm looking for?

I went to vamworld and it is called a normal die (machine) on the date 22. In the cherrypicker guide they show nothing on the Vam ll, and judging by my coin I see nothing on the date. Can someone help, i'll wait more than one day for reply. :jokealert:Thanks

 

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John

[rrantique]

Did you check all of these for the 22 John?

 

http://vamworld.wikispaces.com/1922-P+VAMs

[rbrown4]

John,

 

Is it a VAM 11 (eleven)? Is so it should have doubling of the olive branch and leaves.

 

Rey

[conqueror]

The Tpg states it is a VAMll

[/img]

In the vamworld the photo shows 22 as the area to look for.

 

John

[rrantique]

I think that the slab is labeled incorrectly. generic vam 2 could be a 2ao,2aq,2as,2aa,2bq, etc, etc,

[conqueror]

I'm thinking the same thing, for I see nothing different about the coin other than being ugly. Could it be that ANACS has made a mistake on this one? Also sorry about stating its a Vamll and not vam-2, I must been jumping from site to site and forget the lettering. Thank you

 

John

[DJCoinz]

VAM-2 is the normal die. I don't think they made a mistake.

[conqueror]

This question may sound stupid but what is a normal die? Why would they put vam on the slab if it just another peace dollar. I'm just getting into these vam dollars so i'll be asking a lot of dumb questions, so bare with me . Thank you

 

John

[dluders-migration]

"rrantique" is correct -- there are multiple sub-varieties of VAMs for 1922 Peace Dollars. Check the website http://dmplvam.com/VAM/1922/ and wait until all of the pictures load up on the left. Scroll down all of the pictures on the left to see all of the various VAM-2 varieties. You're going to have to look at your coin CLOSELY with a high-powered magnifier to see which VAM-2 you have exactly.

[rrantique]

Well Howdy and welcome to the forum.

[cpm9ball]

This question may sound stupid but what is a normal die? Why would they put vam on the slab if it just another peace dollar. I'm just getting into these vam dollars so i'll be asking a lot of dumb questions, so bare with me . Thank you

 

John

 

Your question isn't dumb. A normal die is still a variety from which all others are compared for variations.

 

As a simplified example, let's say that you have three 1921 Morgan $'s, and the first design that was struck had 18 berries on the (Reverse) wreath, and there were 21 million produced. However, as a result of die deterioration, the dies were polished to the extent that one of the berries disappeared. Then, another 100,000 coins were struck before the dies had to be polished again. Now, another berry disappeared.

 

So, you have three varieties: The original with 18 berries, which is considered a normal die as it was intended, we shall call VAM-1; the second with 17 berries we'll call VAM-2, and the third with 16 berries would be called VAM-3.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Chris

[conqueror]

Yes it does Chris!

Your saying that there were so many different varity in that year, that even the normal die has a vam number. Now, those this apply to other dates as well?

 

John

[cpm9ball]

Yes it does Chris!

Your saying that there were so many different varity in that year, that even the normal die has a vam number. Now, those this apply to other dates as well?

 

John

 

No, it wasn't because there were so many varieties. Even the very first coin struck for a date/mm is a variety in and of itself. Every date/mm in The Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan & Peace Dollars begins by categorizing a normal die.

 

Let me further this explanation by posing this hypothetical question:

 

If two cars were totally identical in every way, shape and form, how would you tell them apart? No, don't say by using the key to see which one it unlocks! The only way you would be able to tell them apart is by their Vehicle Identification Number. Every car is assigned a VIN just as every Morgan & Peace dollar is assigned a VAM.

 

Chris

[Conder101]

As a simplified example, let's say that you have three 1921 Morgan $'s, and the first design that was struck had 18 berries on the (Reverse) wreath, and there were 21 million produced. However, as a result of die deterioration, the dies were polished to the extent that one of the berries disappeared. Then, another 100,000 coins were struck before the dies had to be polished again. Now, another berry disappeared.

 

So, you have three varieties: The original with 18 berries, which is considered a normal die as it was intended, we shall call VAM-1; the second with 17 berries we'll call VAM-2, and the third with 16 berries would be called VAM-3.

Apparently VAM's are numbered in a very weird fashion. In any other series these three coins would all be considered to be the same variety and would be cataloged as Var 1 State I, Var 1 State II, and Var 1 State III. In any other series the variety number only changes when the coin is from a DIFFERENT die marriage.

 

In some cases the Var 1 is reserved for the "perfect die" specimen. This would be a coin from a die pair (1-A) that has no distintive features that allow the specific obv and rev dies to be identified. It is really a "theoretical" variety and there may be many Die 1 obvs and A revs, they just can't be told apart. As soon as a feture is noted that allows a specific die to be identified it is then NOT obv 1 or Rev A and a new variety is numbered. (The first new variety identified would be Var 2 of either die pair 2-A or 1-B). If the die changes but is identifiably still the same die, for example a new die crack appears, then the variety does not change, and the coin is identified as coming from a different die state of Var #X. (Correct terminology from the error coin field would be die stage, but most specialist fields use the incorrect term "State".)

 

VAM's do not appear to be numbered in this same fashion.

[RGT]

I've always thought that the VAM system was a bit odd. Variety attributions in most series seem like an attempt to identify varieties that specialists are interested in. VAM numbering seems like an attempt to create interest in a variety that no one would otherwise ever notice. It seems more like a marketing technique. But, I guess it is fun to hunt for them and I even check for them on my Morgans and Peace Dollars.

 

(Correct terminology from the error coin field would be die stage, but most specialist fields use the incorrect term "State".)

 

How do you determine what is the correct term? In most English usage, correctness seems to be determined more by common useage rather than rigid definitions. Language is not a science and evolves with use. As a Scientist/Engineer I am usually particular about terminology used in my field. From my view, a state is a continuously evolvint thing while a stage would be discrete. Some die changes are gradual (like die cracks) while others are discrete (such as tool and clash marks). I guess we do tend to group even the gradually changing dies into "stages".

[cpm9ball]

I've always thought that the VAM system was a bit odd. Variety attributions in most series seem like an attempt to identify varieties that specialists are interested in. VAM numbering seems like an attempt to create interest in a variety that no one would otherwise ever notice. It seems more like a marketing technique. But, I guess it is fun to hunt for them and I even check for them on my Morgans and Peace Dollars.

 

(Correct terminology from the error coin field would be die stage, but most specialist fields use the incorrect term "State".)

 

How do you determine what is the correct term? In most English usage, correctness seems to be determined more by common useage rather than rigid definitions. Language is not a science and evolves with use. As a Scientist/Engineer I am usually particular about terminology used in my field. From my view, a state is a continuously evolvint thing while a stage would be discrete. Some die changes are gradual (like die cracks) while others are discrete (such as tool and clash marks). I guess we do tend to group even the gradually changing dies into "stages".

 

I guess you could look at it this way.............From the moment that coin production begins, the dies are in a nearly continual state of change as a result of deterioration and/or manipulation. As each coin is struck, it reflects the condition of the dies at that particular moment. Subsequently, when you view a coin, it is reflecting that particular stage in the life of the dies.

 

"You know what I'm sayin?".........I hate this expression!!

 

Chris

[RGT]

I guess you could look at it this way.............From the moment that coin production begins, the dies are in a nearly continual state of change as a result of deterioration and/or manipulation. As each coin is struck, it reflects the condition of the dies at that particular moment. Subsequently, when you view a coin, it is reflecting that particular stage in the life of the dies.

 

"You know what I'm sayin?".........I hate this expression!!

 

Chris

 

That's kinda' what I was gettin' at. (trying to talk southern so you will understand)

 

I think of "state" as a snapshot of a continuously evolving process like die deterioration while "stage" seems more like a discrete change, like a multi-stage rocket booster. Those rocket stages come off in discrete chunks.

[conqueror]

Thanks for all your examples and inputs, it has been very helpful. (thumbs u

 

John

[cpm9ball]

.........(trying to talk southern so you will understand)

 

Okay, I took the bait! First of all, why do you assume that I'm a southerner? Is it just because my personal info indicates that I live in South Florida? If I were a native Floridian, then how do you suppose that I learned to spell? No, I was born and raised and educated in the "northern" state of Maryland just northwest of Washington, DC, but don't let that fool you. You can't call me a d@mn Yankee, either. Maryland was a border state and there were just as many who fought for the South during the Civil War. As a matter of fact, my great-great grandmother was the aunt of Stonewall Jackson, and her family took him in when his parents died from the plague. So, what does all of this make me? A well-rounded, educated American!

 

Chris

[MikeInFL]

What y'all talkin' 'bout? That Yankee turned Rebel gots it right -- coins ain't rockets, and die states/states ain't discrete. 'Tis shades o'grey we be talking 'bout.

 

 

Now if y'all will 'scuse me, I got oranges that need pickin'...Mike

[RGT]

.........(trying to talk southern so you will understand)

 

Okay, I took the bait! First of all, why do you assume that I'm a southerner? Is it just because my personal info indicates that I live in South Florida? If I were a native Floridian, then how do you suppose that I learned to spell? No, I was born and raised and educated in the "northern" state of Maryland just northwest of Washington, DC, but don't let that fool you. You can't call me a d@mn Yankee, either. Maryland was a border state and there were just as many who fought for the South during the Civil War. As a matter of fact, my great-great grandmother was the aunt of Stonewall Jackson, and her family took him in when his parents died from the plague. So, what does all of this make me? A well-rounded, educated American!

 

Chris

 

You sound like you are trying to defend yourself as if you would be ashamed to be a southerner. Everyone knows that Florida a northern state, at least by population if not geography. Myself, I was born and raised and educated in Kentucky, also a border state. I've lived near Chicago, in New York state and Connecticut but I've been living in Alabama for several years now. You can call me what ever you want to.

 

Apparently I don't post often enough to have the right to jest. I will slink back into lurk mode now.......

[RGT]

What y'all talkin' 'bout? That Yankee turned Rebel gots it right -- coins ain't rockets, and die states/states ain't discrete. 'Tis shades o'grey we be talking 'bout.

 

 

Now if y'all will 'scuse me, I got oranges that need pickin'...Mike

 

It's all Conder's fault. He's the one who got out the grey crayon.

 

We don't need none of them oranges 'round these parts. Gets in the way of the cotton.

[cpm9ball]

What y'all talkin' 'bout? That Yankee turned Rebel gots it right -- coins ain't rockets, and die states/states ain't discrete. 'Tis shades o'grey we be talking 'bout.

 

 

Now if y'all will 'scuse me, I got oranges that need pickin'...Mike

 

But Massa Mike, what wud da otha plantation ownas think if dey saw ya wukkin in de fields? Why po Miss Scarlett wuddin be able ta show her face anywer. Lawdy!

[Conder101]

In most English usage, correctness seems to be determined more by common useage rather than rigid definitions. Language is not a science and evolves with use. As a Scientist/Engineer I am usually particular about terminology used in my field. From my view, a state is a continuously evolvint thing while a stage would be discrete. Some die changes are gradual (like die cracks) while others are discrete (such as tool and clash marks)

Actually I think Language is a science, but the average person isn't a scientist and so tends to use it improperly in whatever way they feel like doing.

 

Numismatics is also a science and as such the use of terminology should also be precise. I bow to the definition of terms as used by the Error field because that branch of our science is the one most closely involved with the study of the changes that the dies go through from creation through retirement. Like you, they view state as a continous evolving change and speak of State as being almost a "range of being" Early state, Very early state, Late state etc. rather than as a specific point and usually refers more to the amount of physical wear the die the die has received from the movement of the planchet metal across its face. Stage is used to indicate a specific, distrinctive step change in the die and it is possible to have different die states of the same die stage.

 

You mention that die cracks are a gradual change, and sometimes it can seem like that, but usually they are not. Normally the dies crack in descrete steps (If you could get down in there and examine the cracks with a microscope you might find that they are very slightly different with every blow of the dies, but in macroscopic practice they usually isn't the case.). They will crack to a certain point, and stay there for several, maybe hundreds of blows, and then on the next impact the crack jumps to the next point. (Often letter to letter, but sometimes in much greater jumps.)

[cpm9ball]

.........(trying to talk southern so you will understand)

 

Okay, I took the bait! First of all, why do you assume that I'm a southerner? Is it just because my personal info indicates that I live in South Florida? If I were a native Floridian, then how do you suppose that I learned to spell? No, I was born and raised and educated in the "northern" state of Maryland just northwest of Washington, DC, but don't let that fool you. You can't call me a d@mn Yankee, either. Maryland was a border state and there were just as many who fought for the South during the Civil War. As a matter of fact, my great-great grandmother was the aunt of Stonewall Jackson, and her family took him in when his parents died from the plague. So, what does all of this make me? A well-rounded, educated American!

 

Chris

 

You sound like you are trying to defend yourself as if you would be ashamed to be a southerner. Everyone knows that Florida a northern state, at least by population if not geography. Myself, I was born and raised and educated in Kentucky, also a border state. I've lived near Chicago, in New York state and Connecticut but I've been living in Alabama for several years now. You can call me what ever you want to.

 

Apparently I don't post often enough to have the right to jest. I will slink back into lurk mode now.......

 

We're just having a little fun, and you're welcome to join us at any time. Often enough? I think I was making wisecracks on the first day I registered. I used to use the emoticons all of the time so others wouldn't get the wrong idea, but now, since they all know I'm crazy, it doesn't matter.

 

Chris