certified coin market instability.

[Keleum]

I have a question for some of you veteran collectors. Before/If I go paying many times the buillon value for certified coins, should I be waiting until all this CAC/TPG stuff settles. I'm not looking to make money, but I'd rather not be in a spot 5 years from now, where everything I bought certified has raw values, because it's not been super-certified.

 

Is this a legitimate concern? Is it really any more of a risk than "market" grading fluctations, anyways?

[MarkFeld]

It would be helpful to know what type(s) and grades of coins you are speaking of.

[TomB]

You use the term bullion so I will assume you are looking to buy bullion-related coins. If so, the price should be very closely related to the price of bullion and you would likely be best off buying raw pieces directly from the various mints.

[James_OldeTowne]

I try not to let "the market" influence my coin-buying decisions. My collection plays a much bigger part in such decisions.

[Keleum]

I was talking more generally about older/rarer gold coins. Gold eagles, 1/2 eagles, gold dollars that kind of stuff. I said buillion but what I meant is the price for the coin is many times the cost of the metal in them.

[DaveG]

A desirable, in-demand, rare coin isn't going to increase or diminish in price just because a bunch of guys are putting stickers on slabs.

 

On the other hand, a not-particularly desirable, not-so rare coin won't either.

 

Your best bet?

 

Stick to buying attractive-for-the-grade coins that other collectors want to own.

[James_OldeTowne]

I was talking more generally about older/rarer gold coins. Gold eagles, 1/2 eagles, gold dollars that kind of stuff. I said buillion but what I meant is the price for the coin is many times the cost of the metal in them.

If what you mean is coins for collectors, then actually, I think those are the best investments.

 

I wouldn't worry about the CAC baloney. Those guys are not collector-friendly anyway, and shouldn't impact you if you are pursuing this as a hobby, and not as an investment, other than coins might by going up a little overall (but aren't they anyway?).

[Houston Investor]

I would not worry about the absurdity of CAC and their rabid fans - their propoganda is nothing but hot air that has everyone I know of on the bourse laughing or rolling their eyes in disbelief.

 

Buy coins that you like and fit your collection / investment goal. Develop a good numismatic library and expand your own grading skills. Learn about the series your are collecting, the particulars of certain issues - do they come wellstruck? do they just have average luster? Learn how to price coins - if the PCGS price guide says a coin is a $100 coin and someone is offering it for $1200 because they love the toning that should a raise a red flag! If CDN ask is $200 and a dealer is offering the coin for $495 and your excel analysis of dealer ads shows the average industry markup is 21% above CDN Ask then there is a real good chance that coin is grossly overpriced. And I don't care how pretty the toning is or if it has a CAC, Bonzo, or Three Stooges sticker. Learn to do your own homework.

 

Now if you are a mullet and would pay 1200% above market retail for a coin because the seller thinks it has great toning don't do any of the above and maybe CAC will give you a nice pretty sticker.

 

 

[rexcat]

I would not worry about the absurdity of CAC and their rabid fans - their propoganda is nothing but hot air that has everyone I know of on the bourse laughing or rolling their eyes in disbelief.

 

Buy coins that you like and fit your collection / investment goal. Develop a good numismatic library and expand your own grading skills. Learn about the series your are collecting, the particulars of certain issues - do they come wellstruck? do they just have average luster? Learn how to price coins - if the PCGS price guide says a coin is a $100 coin and someone is offering it for $1200 because they love the toning that should a raise a red flag! If CDN ask is $200 and a dealer is offering the coin for $495 and your excel analysis of dealer ads shows the average industry markup is 21% above CDN Ask then there is a real good chance that coin is grossly overpriced. And I don't care how pretty the toning is or if it has a CAC, Bonzo, or Three Stooges sticker. Learn to do your own homework.

 

Now if you are a mullet and would pay 1200% above market retail for a coin because the seller thinks it has great toning don't do any of the above and maybe CAC will give you a nice pretty sticker.

 

 

I couldn’t agree more Parker, (thumbs u while I was off typing away you said just what I was going to say so I’ll skipped my banter, but think it should be said again…

 

Especially the do your homework!

 

Problem free eye appealing coins will always be wanted by collectors; these coins don’t need the plastic around them to hold their value, they are able to stand on their own merits. Learn to find them, lots are out there.

 

[ldhair]

[James_OldeTowne]

Parker, I think this is the best post you've made so far with regard to your feelings on the CAC issue. Good job (thumbs u.

[michael]

I have a question for some of you veteran collectors. Before/If I go paying many times the buillon value for certified coins, should I be waiting until all this CAC/TPG stuff settles. I'm not looking to make money, but I'd rather not be in a spot 5 years from now, where everything I bought certified has raw values, because it's not been super-certified.

 

Is this a legitimate concern? Is it really any more of a risk than "market" grading fluctations, anyways?

 

only buy coins with great killer eye appeal in holders

 

only buy coins you can understand and correctly value based on your view of the marketplace in holders

 

only buy coins with opportunity and value in holders that also have a fundemential reason to rise in demand again in holders

 

if you look at a coin in a holder ask yourself if i break this coin out of its respective holder is it worth the same or more in value and demand???

 

IF YOU CAN ALL BY YOURSELF ANSWER YES TO ALL THE QUESTIONS AS PER THE ABOVE WHEN LOOKING AT BUYING SOMETHING IN A HOLDER

 

and you understand coins are a hobby to only be bought with discretionary funds

 

THEN BUY THE COIN.......................................

 

IF YOU CANT ANSWER YES TO ALL OF THE ABOVE THEN DO NOT BUY COINS UNTIL YOU CAN AND/OR COLLECT SOMETHING ELSE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND

 

got it??

 

get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

:devil:GOOD

 

come on kiddo lets get with the program here you are going about it the wrong way

backwards

 

please see below

 

 

 

 

[michael]

coins are either one of two things

 

 

 

a hobby bought with discretionaty income

 

OR

 

a spectulation

 

get with the program young man

 

you are asking the wrong questions

 

start asking the right questions

 

1- waht do i want to collect with discretionary income for fun and enjoyment?

2-how do i look at more coins and do more research on them and read more specialized books on the coins i want to collect?

3-- what new collector friends have i made and when am i planning to go to a coin show to look at as many coins as i can??

4---what loupe do i buy so i can get one that is top quality and the best suitable for me to be able to properly examine all these coins i will be looking at

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Houston Investor]

Thanks James, Rexcat

 

Yes we have to go with what we like in acquiring coins. I have bought and sold many different series but there are always certain ones pulling me back: Silver Commems, Walkers, Peace Dollars, Modern World Gold.

[just-john]

I think if you collect coins you accumulate and gather and bring together a collection of /Indian head cents- Lincoln cent- Mercury dimes SLQ-WLH-Franklin half ect. IF you start adding slabs and grades and values/prices in the real world most modern coins aren't worth the slabbing fee most high dollar auctions sell to people who have way more money than cents and are always guided by an expert with not as much money but way more since sense

 

 

[EZ_E]

 

 

IF YOU CANT ANSWER YES TO ALL OF THE ABOVE THEN DO NOT BUY COINS UNTIL YOU CAN AND/OR COLLECT SOMETHING ELSE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND

 

 

 

 

I think that the exception to this statement is if you know a dealer with knowledge and integrity and can rely upon his judgement. Then you will gain a knowledge base from the coins you acquire and from the info gleaned from your dealer. Mark Feld fills this role for me. Then, with time, you will become more comfortable in your decisions when it comes time to buy raw or at shows.

[BillJones]

Keleum, The fact that you make statements about paying more than the bullion price for coins shows that you are not quite ready to be a collector. I've been a collector for over 45 years, and I can tell you that when it comes to placing a value on coins, and deciding if they are right for me, "bullion" is one of my least important considerations.

 

A several months ago I paid over $50,000 for a coin that melts for less than a couple hundred bucks. Am I crazy? I didn't think so because the coin in question was one of the first $5 gold pieces the U.S. mint produced. It was in a PCGS holder, and it had nice eye appeal for the grade. The coin had also not been "processed" to make it bright and shiny. Sadly there are too many collectors out there who think that “shiny” = quality. “Shiny” can come from a bottle. The look of age and originality takes a couple hundred years to acquire.

 

But I digress.

 

If you are interested in bullion, buy raw U.S. gold, silver or platinum eagles. Don’t mess with certified coins in that area, because it’s a waste of money. If you are interested real collectors’ items, buy them certified. The hard part is that some certified coins are not all that they are cracked up to be, and that’s where this CAC outfit comes in. To me they are nothing but a marketing scheme that is calculated to give a few dealers, who want to be insiders, an edge. Some people might pay attention to them. Many veteran collectors will probably be ready to tell them to commit a private act up a rope.

 

The bottom line is if you buy nice coins that knowledgeable collectors admire, you will do OK. If you buy low end stuff, you won’t do as well. If you can’t tell the difference between nice stuff and low end stuff, you either need an education, or you need a dealer you trust to help you.

 

At any rate coins are mostly for fun. If you want to invest, get into the stock market or some place that is designed for that purpose. It’s been said that too many cooks spoil the soup, and in the coin market too many investors can do the same. History has proven that time and time again.

 

[michael]

if you buy pre 1915 truly scarce federal, territorial, colonial coinage with

 

1) tremendous eye appeal

2) has extra special, extraordinary qualities for the grade stated on the holder

3) and if the coin is broken out of its respective holder it is at least worth as much if not more than you paid

4)and it is also an opportunity value coin with a fundemential reason to rise in demand

5) and of course it is not been fixed,repaired, played with, messed with, screwed with, etc.

 

(thumbs u you gots absolutely nothing to worry about

 

:makepoint:oh yea baby

 

ie.------and of course there can be added coins post 1915 say for example the 1955 doubled die cent and others but too long for this post so we stick to just pre 1915 coinage

 

 

 

 

[MrEureka-migration]

The short answer is "If you have to ask, then wait."

 

The long answer is that if you know what you're looking at, then you don't have to wait for the stickers. You can go ahead and purchase what you like, right now. But if you don't know what you're looking at, you can't be careful enough, and you should wait.

[CHABSENTIA]

I look at the Numismedia Values here on the NGC Population where my concern is now the A.S.E. I then go all over the Internet and see what Coins are selling for at dealers.I do not live in a big City such as New York so my choices are limited.I only look at Certified Coins on Ebay that are certified by NGC. I am looking for MS70 now.

 

It is very difficult if not impossible to find an MS70. I have found in the case that I have found the Coin at both a Dealer and Numismedia that the Dealer is in most cases higher. I will not bid on E Bay for over the Numismedia Price.Recently a Seller on Ebay had a First Strike Coin in MS70 for $5,999.00. This is ridiculous as per the First Strike Controversy and the Coin in MS70 without the First Strike designation is $1000.00

 

I recently picked up a 1989 Silver Eagle on E bay for $550.00. in MS70.The Numismedia Value is $830.00 I was prepared to go higher but it wasn't necessary.I bid on a 1995 MS70 up to $575.00 because I know where I can purchase it for $599.00.It went for $620.00. Numismedia has it for $750.00.Why shoulde I pay $21.00 more for something. The 1989 will have to go down in Value 50% before I lose Money.You can't get carried away by the bidding and the hype.

 

The 1995 would have given me 908 points on the Registry while the 1989 gives me 725 but $600 to $750.00 only gives me a 25% increase by the Numismedia Standard.I feel I can make this up later because if I can purchase enough coins at a 50% mark down as opposed to a 25% then I can afford an extra Coin to make up the difference in Registry Points if this is an issue.

 

In short you have to look for Value by using some Standard of Value and be willing to investigate other sources for availability and to comapre Prices.