greed, plastic values, grading fees, 3rd party opinions, and conservation...

[michael]

........ uneducated collector-peddler-spectulator with their lessons (only a lesson if you lose money ) relying on plastic holders/others for their value added potential and if so stripping the coin to get the required holder acceptance and possible upgrade

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270149428106

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[poorguy.-migration]

From what seemingly (from what the seller stated) went from a graded PCGS MS64 with original surfaces (or it was deemed original by PCGS before stripped) to a BB from both PCGS and NGC. Then the surfaces were removed and it was an NGC MS63. Then finally back to PCGS as an MS64.

 

PCGS MS64 with original color (at least it was when it was graded this time) Greysheet value $115-$130

AT - PCGS greysheet value (N/A but obviously less in a BB and ungraded)

AT - NGC greysheet value (N/A but obviously less in a BB and ungraded)

Surfaces altered by removal of patination.

NGC MS63 greysheet value $65-$70

PCGS MS64 greysheet value $115-$130

 

Values ranged from $130 to almost unmarketable to half the value of the original holder/grade $65 then back up to the original $130 except that now the skin has been removed. I'd be curious to see what it looked like before it ended up in an MS63 holder.

 

From the lot description:

 

PCGS Holder #10970337 (current generation holder). This coin comes with a story and a lesson. It was purchased in October 2002 housed in a PCGS64 holder from a very reputable dealer. The coin appealed to me because both the strike and subtle pastel tones caught my eye. I was convinced the coin was undergraded so I cracked it out and sent it to PCGS raw (#9045646). It came back BB'd because of AT. I still didn't believe it so I sent it in for a presidential review (2/13/06). Again, AT!. I immediately sent it to NGC and received the same BB'd treatment. Not wanting to accept defeat, I then sent it to NCS for their professional removal of the patina (which I still don't accept as being AT). The coin was returned in a NGC holder at MS63. I sent it back to PCGS (this time without cracking it out - I do learn my lesson) via submission #9057925 in October 2006. It received an upgrade to it's current holder and grade. So, after several months, wasting two collector club grading certificates and too much postage expense, it's back to it's beginning - PCGS64.

[Stanley]

........ uneducated collector-peddler-spectulator with their lessons (only a lesson if you lose money ) relying on plastic holders/others for their value added potential and if so stripping the coin to get the required holder acceptance and possible upgrade

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270149428106

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you implying had the Nickel upgraded to command a higher premium it wouldn’t had been a lesson?

If so, perhaps this is what re sellers are most angered about.

 

[MikeInFL]

Why would anyone waste grading fees on this coin in the first place, much less the fifth time?

[BillJones]

If the story is true, it's an example of how the grading services have gone amuck.

 

I don’t know if this coin started out in a PCGS green label holder, but if it did, perhaps it’s an example of the following situation. A lot of collectors and dealers believe that PCGS coins in green label holders are ALL conservatively graded. I can tell from looking at a fair number of them that that is not the case. While a fair number of such coins are conservatively graded, there are still enough over graded pieces to make that rule of thumb invalid.

 

One well known dealer has told me that he’s seen a fair number of PCGS green label coins that would not grade today (get body bagged). His contention is that they have changed this aspect of the service along with what we perceive to be lower standards. I know that I’ve seen at least one 1796 half dime in an AU-55 green label holder that was polished and artificially toned. I also got stung when I first got into business with an 1806 quarter in a PCGS green label VF-30 holder that had been polished and AT’d.

 

I’d say hats off to this Ebay seller for telling his story. It should be an education to those who thing that brand names and label colors provide protection. They don’t.

[James_OldeTowne]

This is exactly what I see as the role third-party grading has played in ruining the hobby - and I apologize for having to state this is such bald terms. That coin, which realistically should cost $50, now costs $250 due to ridiculous overhead for grading fees, conservation fees, shipping fees, etc. It is unfortunate that people cannot merely buy a coin for what it is, rather than for what the holder says it is - or what they think it might "become" (given the "right grade").

 

Some coins need to be certified, but this simply is not an example that belongs in a third-party holder.

 

I’d say hats off to this Ebay seller for telling his story. It should be an education to those who thing that brand names and label colors provide protection. They don’t.

You'd better believe it, and that' s why I archived it as soon as I saw Michaels outstanding post and read the linked auction listing.

[BillJones]

Sorry James, but grading, conservation and shipping fees did not raise the value of this piece. You can put sow's ear in a silk purse, but it's still a sow's ear. There has to be a demand for the coin after all the money has been spent on it, or you will never get your money out of it. To the extent that grading fees and the like move the supply curve up, you might see some price inflation. But that is a very indirect path to inflating prices. If you go to some coin shows you will see coins for less than their slab fees and all the rest of the money that has been spent on them.

 

As for this ebay offering, the coin now looks too “white.” I dare say that I would have liked it more it before the conservers played with it.

 

[123cents]

I agree with Bill Jones' comments.

[michael]

Why would anyone waste grading fees on this coin in the first place, much less the fifth time?

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to hopefully get it into the right holder

with the correct grade on it

in PCGS plastic------------------see my example below hot stuff

 

for the registry score in other words why do people keep blindly keep putting money into one arm bandits (slot machines)

 

greed and (the big something for nothing) pay off and believe me kiddo some do get a big score most do not and lose money and their precious time feeding the machines NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT INTERESTING COMPARISON TO THE CRACK OUT GAME AND ALSO WITH MODERNS MAKING THE HUGE SCORE WITH PROOF AND MS 69 AND 70 GRADES...... also there is a hugely unintelligent market driven by ego (registry set mania) for all this

 

think about this mike the 2003 lincoln cent pcgs ms 70 sold for i think 16,000.00 mike let me ask you this how much is this coin worth out of this holder in a stapled 2x2 with the words ms70 2003 lincoln cent written on the holder???

 

mike in florida ------at of the last large baltimore shows (within the last 10 months or so) i went to------ i saw the man who constantly submits coins at shows for same day gradings (yes he pays the 200 dollars) and he showed me (an ugly crappy dipped coin that was solid for the grade on one side and a point better on the other and not too eye appealling due to a dip job) had upgraded a point and was now worth 35,000 more than waht he had paid for the coin out of an auction a year or so ago. prior-------the coin baSICALLY was a dipped pig and really did not look like an upgrade candidate but he got it into the proof 67 cam holder he needed it into---- for the big score (a proof civil war date copper nickel indian head cent) when he showed me his latest score the buzz on the floor of the convention which was considered the score of the march baltimore show at PCGS same day grading

 

he told me and i quote

 

"well i did submit it many many multiple of times at same day show gradings and i got 2000.00+ in fees in it so it should have upgraded"

 

this is the mentality of these same day show submitter types..... they feel after so many coin grades spent they are owed it in other words like an intitlement program from the federal govt. such is human nature

 

and yes he made a killing on it a month or so later after it failed to sell in a heritage auction and then with this public relations he later sold it soon after to a registry player all due to the plastic

 

 

which is okie not good or bad but certainly not great for the hobby as it goves the hobby a bad name but makes this submitter a killing and this is not the first or seconed or third..... etc. time he has did this

 

i can see why the services suddenly tightened up the last few months or so as when i saw this same submitter at the june balty show he was basically shut down as to same day grading upgrade results at PCGS

 

[michael]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you implying had the Nickel upgraded to command a higher premium it wouldn’t had been a lesson?

If so, perhaps this is what re sellers are most angered about.

 

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

and

 

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

[WinstonWare]

That coin looks pretty crappy

[michael]

 

 

[michael]

good to see you here poorguy (thumbs u

 

get your fat over here and post more often

 

and welcome to the boards

 

 

[MikeInFL]

Why would anyone waste grading fees on this coin in the first place, much less the fifth time?

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to hopefully get it into the right holder

with the correct grade on it

in PCGS plastic------------------see my example below hot stuff

 

for the registry score in other words why do people keep blindly keep putting money into one arm bandits (slot machines)

 

greed and (the big something for nothing) pay off and believe me kiddo some do get a big score most do not and lose money and their precious time feeding the machines NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT INTERESTING COMPARISON TO THE CRACK OUT GAME AND ALSO WITH MODERNS MAKING THE HUGE SCORE WITH PROOF AND MS 69 AND 70 GRADES...... also there is a hugely unintelligent market driven by ego (registry set mania) for all this

 

think about this mike the 2003 lincoln cent pcgs ms 70 sold for i think 16,000.00 mike let me ask you this how much is this coin worth out of this holder in a stapled 2x2 with the words ms70 2003 lincoln cent written on the holder???

 

mike in florida ------at of the last large baltimore shows (within the last 10 months or so) i went to------ i saw the man who constantly submits coins at shows for same day gradings (yes he pays the 200 dollars) and he showed me (an ugly crappy dipped coin that was solid for the grade on one side and a point better on the other and not too eye appealling due to a dip job) had upgraded a point and was now worth 35,000 more than waht he had paid for the coin out of an auction a year or so ago. prior-------the coin baSICALLY was a dipped pig and really did not look like an upgrade candidate but he got it into the proof 67 cam holder he needed it into---- for the big score (a proof civil war date copper nickel indian head cent) when he showed me his latest score the buzz on the floor of the convention which was considered the score of the march baltimore show at PCGS same day grading

 

he told me and i quote

 

"well i did submit it many many multiple of times at same day show gradings and i got 2000.00+ in fees in it so it should have upgraded"

 

this is the mentality of these same day show submitter types..... they feel after so many coin grades spent they are owed it in other words like an intitlement program from the federal govt. such is human nature

 

and yes he made a killing on it a month or so later after it failed to sell in a heritage auction and then with this public relations he later sold it soon after to a registry player all due to the plastic

 

 

which is okie not good or bad but certainly not great for the hobby as it goves the hobby a bad name but makes this submitter a killing and this is not the first or seconed or third..... etc. time he has did this

 

i can see why the services suddenly tightened up the last few months or so as when i saw this same submitter at the june balty show he was basically shut down as to same day grading upgrade results at PCGS

 

Thank you for sharing your insights. Greed seems to be the motivation, and he hints at it when he said, "It was purchased [...] in a PCGS64 holder [...] I was convinced the coin was undergraded so I cracked it out and sent it to PCGS raw." So I guess that greed is not always good, eh, and we should be comfortable with the risks associated with cracking and resubmitting before we undertake such an effort?....Mike

[BillJones]

The trouble with this 1914 nickel was that there was not much place to go with it from the start. The Gray Sheet bid on this coin in MS-64 is $115. If it had gone into an MS-65, the bid would have gone to $335, which hardly a killing. A $220 gross margin is not much of an incentive given the postage and grading fees PLUS the odds of NOT getting an upgrade. As it turned out the buyer got the worst of all worlds - a body bag.

 

Then he spends more money on more slabs and a conservation fee. I guess the main thing he got was an assurance that the coin would have never have made MS-65 given the marks uncovered by the cleaning - ah excuse me - conservation procedure.

 

About only way this coin would have gotten an upgrade would have been if it had been sent to a third world slab company. There it might have gotten an MS-67, and then you could sell it to a duffus with an ebay line like this:

 

This coin came from an old estate. I didn't know what it was worth so I sent it to the sock-it-to –‘em slab company and got back an MS-67 grade. The coin is worth $4,500, but since I don’t have that much in it, you I’ll sell it to the highest bid who exceeds my $500 minimum.

[James_OldeTowne]

Sorry James, but grading, conservation and shipping fees did not raise the value of this piece. You can put sow's ear in a silk purse, but it's still a sow's ear. There has to be a demand for the coin after all the money has been spent on it, or you will never get your money out of it. To the extent that grading fees and the like move the supply curve up, you might see some price inflation. But that is a very indirect path to inflating prices. If you go to some coin shows you will see coins for less than their slab fees and all the rest of the money that has been spent on them.

 

As for this ebay offering, the coin now looks too “white.” I dare say that I would have liked it more it before the conservers played with it.

Bill, the point I was trying to make (and looking back, did a terrible job in my attempt ) is that in essence, $250 has now been paid for the coin and slab. Now, that doesn't mean it's worth that amount, just that it has cost that amount.

 

In other words, instead of a collector spending $50 in order to obtain $50 worth of numismatic value from the coin market, he spent $250, yet still only obtained $50 worth of numismatic value.

 

I know this still is probably making no sense. It just bothers the heck out of me when the collecting community at large spends $200 on slabbing fees for a coin worth $50.

 

Oh well I'm just ranting again.....

[BillJones]

The only thing I can say is if a collector acts stupidly, he will probably end up buried in the coin.

 

It seems to me that this guy was not looking to collect the coin, but was making a foolish attempt to play the crack out game.

 

Of course the way you are supposed to treat SUNK expenses is to ignore them for future decisions about what to do. Therefore if you blew $100 on grading fees and now had a raw coin that was worth $25, it would make sense if you knew for sure that you could spend $75 on the coin and end with something you could sell for $150. the fact that you now had $175 in fees plus say $50 for cost of the coin would not matter except on your tax return. This is what they teach you in business school.

 

Now that I have totally confused you, my reaction is to not put any more money down the rat hole, dump the junk and use it as a learning experience.

 

[Dcoin]

I’m surprised that he went into details. Most people would have put it up and conveniently forgotten the story behind PCGS64.

 

Lesson Learned: The crack out game is not for most collectors.

 

[MikeKing]

the coin is now white...just the way PCGS likes them.

I had to email this seller to commend him on his honesty in representing the coin (I believe his story), and sometimes we get into a bind sending coins back to TPGs for whatever the case only to get caught in this rut of resubmission for whatever extenuating circumstances and paying through the nose. Truly a lesson to be learned. Been there...done that...

I say bravo to this seller :acclaim:

 

 

[DJCoinz]

Thread stealer! Seriously, not many people would be as up front about it as the seller is. Sounds like a good honest guy. (thumbs u