Please help me learn about early type coins...

[MikeInFL]

With most of the modern types in my type collection filled, I have come to a point to start to look for early type coins (say pre-1807 silver). However, these coins, with their recent appreciation in value and my lack of experience, have really scared me.

 

In hopes of learning a bit from my forum friends, please help me (and other readers) broaden my understanding of these early type coins, and discuss the following topics:

 

1) What is the right look for circulated early type (I'm particularly interested in F-XF, but please feel free to share higher or lower graded coins)?

2) If you have a good example, please share it and discuss why you like it.

3) What are some of the less obvious problems I should be aware of? For instance, when I first started collecting circulated large cents, I was quite unaware of the unnatural colors (i.e. recoloring) of copper. However, once I was given a few tips for what to look for, and saw it myself a few times, recognizing recolored became much easier.

4) Which of the types would you recommend I start with and why?

 

Thanks in advance...Mike

[UScoinrunner88-migration]

I recommend either staring with a nice crusty Bust Half or Bust Dime. These are relativley inexpensive in the F-EF grades and look great.

[TJ'S Coins]

Are you looking for Draped Bust coinage, Mike? The transition years between Draped Bust and Capped Bust was 1807 for Half Dollars. I only have a couple of examples of Draped Bust coins (non photographed yet) and the price differential between that series and Capped Bust material is much steeper. They are harder to find than CB material too in my experience. Early copper is a whole other game, one which I am only a novice. Thanks for asking good questions. I'm looking forward to the answers too!

[MikeInFL]

Are you looking for Draped Bust coinage, Mike? The transition years between Draped Bust and Capped Bust was 1807 for Half Dollars. I only have a couple of examples of Draped Bust coins (non photographed yet) and the price differential between that series and Capped Bust material is much steeper. They are harder to find than CB material too in my experience. Early copper is a whole other game, one which I am only a novice. Thanks for asking good questions. I'm looking forward to the answers too!

 

Yes, the earlier (i.e. pre-1807) non-copper stuff. The original post has been modified to be more clear...Mike

[WinstonWare]

1) There are a couple of different looks that are “right” and by that I mean original. Deep brown is probably the most common but there is also deep mossy green as well, perhaps others that I am neglecting…

 

2) I would look at Tom’s circulated type set here . I like it because it’s a good reference to original, early federal coinage.

 

3) Early coins that have been wiped or dipped can become dark again over time or with some assistance. Finding a coin with some skin is a good defense against this.

 

4) I would say early half dollars because there are some great books on the subject. Bust Half Fever is a great enjoyable read. Early Half Dollar Die Varieties by Overton is also great but it’s a bit dry and reads somewhat like a manual.

 

* I've only been studying coins for a little over a year now, so this is just what I have learned. I'm sure that there are more knowledgable opinions out there...

 

[BillJones]

1) What is the right look for circulated early type (I'm particularly interested in F-XF, but please feel free to share higher or lower graded coins)?

 

2) If you have a good example, please share it and discuss why you like it.

 

 

Here is the "best" right look for circulated silver. It is a moderate even gray tone. The metal in this coin has turned color through the years in an even manner. There are virtually no dark spots, and the surface is smooth, not porus in any way. I have bought and sold coins of this type in as low as VG-10 that still had this general look. You will pay strong premiums for coins that look like this. Collectors who know what they are doing are willing to step up. I paid a very high price for this coin.

 

There may be subtle hints of other colors inside the protected areas in spaces within and between letters and stars. These colors are on the protected mint surface of coins between EF-45 and AU-58. Such colors on worn sufaces are in indicator of past dips or cleaning. Collectors who like toning think this stuff is cool, but once you realize what caused it, your opinion might change. Here is a 1795 half dime that has color. This piece is an AU-58 with around 90% of its mint surface intact. The half dollar I pictured at the top is an EF-45.

 

 

There are those who like "crusty," but I'm not a among them. What some people call "crusty" is what I call corroded silver. I am not a big fan of "crusty" when it becomes unattractive.

 

3) What are some of the less obvious problems I should be aware of? For instance, when I first started collecting circulated large cents, I was quite unaware of the unnatural colors (i.e. recoloring) of copper. However, once I was given a few tips for what to look for, and saw it myself a few times, recognizing recolored became much easier.

 

Bright white is not natural, even on a high grade piece. Do you really think that a 200+ year old coin that has NOT been stored in a mint bag away from air light will be bright white? Come on, use your head.

 

As I said earlier, bight colors on circulated coins are not natural. This is not to say that pieces with duller colors are bad. They may have been "helped," but these are the coins that sell for the published prices (Coin Prices Magazine) or a bit less. When it comes to early coins this sort of thing is OK. The coins are just not worth a big preimum.

 

4) Which of the types would you recommend I start with and why?

 

Start with the most common early silver type coins. That way you won't be looking forever and find nothing, which can take the fun out of it pretty fast.

 

The most common silver type coin is the Draped Bust, Large Eagle half dollar (1801-07). The 1806 and 7 coins are usally not well struck. I think the mint did that to extend the life of the dies. But if the coin has eye appeal, it is worth while.

 

Here's the one from my set. It was dipped long ago, but still has decent eye appeal IMO. (It looked like this when I purchased it in the mid 1970s at a major New York City auction.)

 

 

The next most common type, believe it or not, is the Bust Dollar with the large eagle. The prices on those have gone through the roof unfortunately.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Don't be afraid to confront very strong premiums for unquestionably original, choice material. I sold this $150 coin for $300 in St. Louis this past week. Why? Because the coin is "PERFECT". There was no hesitation on the part of the buyer, and I didn't hesitate when I paid $275 for it. It is THE ULTIMATE look for an early silver coin grading VF/EF.

 

[MBA101]

 

I like the way this looks. Tough to find them this way, but they are out there, as you can see...and this is an XF 45...

[conqueror]

Thank you for educating me on what to look for in these types of coins. Aulthough I will probably never buy the higher price coins in the near future, but I will be looking for the ones in the F to VF grade soon. Just the other day in the cu forum I saw a pcgs 1834 vf 35 qtr. on sell for $217 and looking at the gray sheet the price seemed a little high. Then I look at the JJ-tea coins and few other sites that sell these coins and found the original price to be very fair. After contecting the seller and seeing the picx. and all the other information he was gaving me (in his 41 years of collecting coins) I felt I learned a lot in that 15 min. call. It is information like this that will make me feel confortable enough to spend few thousand dollars on a coin as time goes on. Once again thank you for sharing you insight into these things, even though I seldom respond to any posts I do read them (the educational ones that is) over and over.

John

[Fletcher]

Steep learning curve in this area ... here is dime that I bought recently and I, and just about every one else on the CU boards, thought that it was absolutely NT. Soooooo ... I cracked it out of its 10 year old MS62 ANACS holder and submitted it raw to PCGS hoping for a cross. Just got the grade back today ... Body Bagged for a prior cleaning. Who would have figured??? In short ... it is really tough to know what to look for now days especially with the grading services constantly moving the "acceptable" line ...

 

 

 

 

[BillJones]

From the picture, my response is that the PCGS graders who body bagged that coin are building a monument of ignorance for themselves. I’d have to see this coin personally, and spend some time with it under a scope to make a definitive judgment, but from what I see here, this rejection was unwarranted. BUT I can tell you from personal observation that PCSG has slabbed many early coins from this era that have FAR more wrong with them than this piece.

 

One mistake that many collectors make is this attitude that the graders at the two leading services are infallible, professionals who ALWAYS do their job to perfection. Anyone who has ever cracked out a coin and upgraded it will tell you different. Anyone who has sent in coins with obvious wear and gotten them back in MS holders KNOWS that’s not the case.

 

Somehow some of you guys have gotten the attitude that the graders at the major firms are the ONLY people who can grade coins. That quite simply is not the case. The more mistakes you see in holders and perhaps in this case in body bag, the more you realize that these guys aren’t any better, and sometimes not good, as those have talent for grading and the experience to put effectively to work.

 

[MarkFeld]

I posted this in another thread this morning....

 

Here are images of an XF45 1799 Bust Dollar that I sold earlier this year and which I feel is a "gem circulated" example:

 

 

[BillJones]

 

Despite what we say about original coins, there are collectors out there who want their coins to be white. There is a lot of confusion about the terms “cleaned” and “dipped.” A cleaned coin is a piece that has had its surfaces altered to a considerable extent, usually by some physical action such as rubbing with an abrasive, like an erasure or a wire brush. Such coins are often in line for a body bag or a net grade. A dipped coin has been placed in a solution of mild acid that has removed the surface tarnish. So long as the dipping has left the surfaces of the coin virtually intact, the coin is still collectable and may be graded by the major certification services.

 

This 1831 quarter was dipped to a bright white. If you see this coin in person, you will note that it has full mint sharpness and that well over 95% of its mint bloom is present. This is especially true of the reverse when the mint bloom shows even in the photograph. There is a hint of a rub on the obverse, and NGC quite correctly graded this coin AU-58.

 

For purists this coin is unacceptable, but if you like mint bloom, full mint sharpness and reflective white surfaces this is nothing wrong with adding this coin to your collection. I also purchased this piece for a lot less than the Choice Mint State price, which for a collector on a budget is a consideration. Coins like this were almost always sold as “Choice Uncirculated” in the bad old days.

 

[MarkFeld]

From the picture, my response is that the PCGS graders who body bagged that coin are building a monument of ignorance for themselves. I’d have to see this coin personally, and spend some time with it under a scope to make a definitive judgment, but from what I see here, this rejection was unwarranted

Ah, but that's the problem - often cleaning is not apparent in images.

[BillJones]

From the picture, my response is that the PCGS graders who body bagged that coin are building a monument of ignorance for themselves. I’d have to see this coin personally, and spend some time with it under a scope to make a definitive judgment, but from what I see here, this rejection was unwarranted

Ah, but that's the problem - often cleaning is not apparent in images.

 

I've had my share of unwarranted body bags, Mark, and I'm sure you have had them too. These people are too arrogant and too smug for their own good. Their attitude is "We are always right, and you are stupid." That is the thing I dislike the most about the grading services.

 

If they so perfect in their opinions, how can a coin be body bagged on one submission, and then get an MS-64 on another? If they are “always perfect” how does that happen? Why should they be rewarded with two grading fees for their mistake?

 

[ziggy29]

If they so perfect in their opinions, how can a coin be body bagged on one submission, and then get an MS-64 on another? If they are always perfect how does that happen? Why should they be rewarded with two grading fees for their mistake?

Nailed it. How many other businesses are financially rewarded for making mistakes the way grading services are? This is what our collective overdependence on plastic hath wrought.

[Fletcher]

Well, the coin is on its way to RCNH, a dealer that I regularly do business with, who is going to take a look at it and give me an honest opinion. After that, it either goes back for resubmission or into the safety deposit box proudly wearing its body bag in defiance of the man ...

 

 

 

 

 

[crito]

FWIW, I think you got screwed too Fletcher. 90% of the early material out there is cleaned and 80% of it looks a lot worse than yours.