"Original" coins - with a focus on Early 19th Century silver coins.

[edmerlr]

As collectors we all would prefer only "original" problem-free coins in our collections.

 

Myself, my collecting interests lie only In the Lettered Edge Capped Bust Halves, but my thoughts are relevant to any Early American Silver coin of any denomination.

 

I have asked these questions of others, but I wanted to get opinions and comments from the readers of this forum.

 

Scott Travers in The Coin Collector's Survival Manual makes the statement (in so many words): "...95% of all early American coins have been cleaned." I cannot imagine the percentage being this LOW.

 

When I think of silver, whether is a coin of 90% silver or any 100% silver object, I can see it - if left alone and never, once, "messed with" - turning almost black in toning.

 

We all see "original" Mint State slabbed coins with eye appealing luster and medium toning. How did these coins stay this way? I cannot imagine any environmental situation present or available to collectors in the 19th Century that would have prevented the coins from turning "dark" in color.

 

Somebody said to me once: "I believe that it would be possible for a coin to be stored in a manner where it would gain a light patina that would prevent further oxidation." I would have no trouble agreeing with this statement if we were talking about "storing" in the last half of the 20th Century or the 21st Century. ...but remember, we have to take into consideration coin storage in the 19th Century.

 

Obviously if we see a coin with hairlines, this is a clue that the coin has been cleaned - no matter what the shade of its toning may be. ...but what about the lightly toned coins without hairlines in Mint State slabs? How did they stay relatively "untoned" and ORIGINAL for approximately 200 years?

 

I guess the bottom line is that the use of the word "original" is as subjective as we all claim grading is.

 

"Original" is in the eyes of the beholder.

 

Please, would the readers share their thoughts and opinions with all of us.

 

Thanks,

 

Ed R.

[bsshog40]

My opinions are that we know collecting has been around for many many years. I don't think it makes much difference in what collectors collected in the early years. Anyone that collected found ways of preserving thier collections. There are many historical items that are in original if not close to original conditions. I'm sure that these individuals found means of storing thier collections and keeping them preserved. Who knows how they did it, but there are some very beautiful coins that show some had great accomplishments in preserving them.

[jesbroken]

Were a lot of the "original coloring" removed I feel many "original" coins would surely have evidence of cleaning. If you clean a coin that is 150 or so years old after 50 years then it still has 100 years to retone or color to look original. JMO but I truly doubt their are as many truly original coins out there as many think. I'm sure that even in the 1800's coin collectors had storage means that truly preserved the coins-just look at some of the truly great rarities-many look new without the signs of cleaning. But I agree with you as to the lower % of original coins being available.

[BillJones]

I disagree with the contention advanced by some so-called experts that a toned silver coin will eventually tone to a color as black as coal no matter what. I’ve owned a pretty considerable number of original early coins ranging in grade from VF-25 to AU-58 for more than 20 years. These coins have NOT changed in color one bit since I purchased them.

 

I stored them first in custom made Capital Plastic holders and then moved them on to NGC and PCGS slabs when I decided to have my collection certified. I did not store them in envelops for extended period of time, and I have never used a coin cabinet

 

The ideal color for a high grade circulated early silver coin is a light to medium gray. It’s been my experience that that color is very stable if the coin is properly stored. What is properly stored? It means the coin is stored away from serious sources of sulfur, like run of the mill paper envelopes in a dry environment with steady temperatures. Coins should never be stored in places where there is extreme heat or humidity.

 

I think if you follow these points of advice, a coin should remain stable.

 

I have a couple of early coins that were dipped long ago. These pieces once more were stored under the same conditions as their undipped counterparts. These pieces had retoned to a minor extent. Once more I have never seen any appreciable change in them over a 20 to 30 year period.

 

Finally, you ask about the percentage of original coins. I’d say that it depends more upon the denomination. Back in the 1960s and early ‘70s, large numbers of Bust Dollars were dipped or cleaned white. This was the way many collectors wanted them back then. As a result one sees more than a few retoned or ugly toned bust dollars that most other denominations. The smaller silver saw so cleaning as well, but to a less extent that the early dollars.

 

I might be wrong, but that’s been my observation. As to percentages, well among coins that can be graded Scott Travers’ estimate of 5% might not be that far off. The better stuff did tend to be left alone. BUT with only 5% of the population, you still have to hunt hard to find it.

 

[MikeKing]

Great post.

I do have to agree with Bill, that black is not the necessary (or even likely) outcome of silver coins. They just don't turn black all that often.

Hairlines underneath toning can be the dead giveaway of a prior wiping.

As far as the question about is it original toning. I think there are just so many 'degrees' of 'originality'.

Untouched since minted or circulated.

Dipped properly in the past and retoned 'naturally' (i.e., in a box, cabinet, envelope, holder...)

Dipped properly and never or barely retoned (all depends on when and what kind of storage was used)

Dipped improperly/wiped...loads of those in PCGS and NGC holders

My own feeling, at least with Busties, if I'm going to collect a hundred of them, then it's ok to seek out what looks 'original' and also to accept properly dipped un hairlined busties, which can be magnificent. Just my own feelings.

My guess is, and this is just a guess, that the greyish, dense, but luster pentrable kind of toning on some of my busties is really really old toning that occured naturally, however they were stored. If there's peripheral color, I would suspect it was stored in some kind of circular holder, but there are some toning experts on this board who would know more than I do.

Like this 1824/4, is exactly as I just described:

was it dipped LONG ago? maybe, maybe not. Just can't tell. But I believe this kind of toning is OLD.

(photo: Mike Printz)

[MikeKing]

This one had to have been dipped at some time, absolutely no hairlines, in fact, almost faultless surfaces, yet grades, I think an AU50-55. Patinated in such a way that my sense is it occured over many years, not many many many years, and is otherwise 'natural'. How could I say no to a coin like this?

 

 

[MikeKing]

Here's an example of a heavily patinated, unhairlined bustie...question is, how did it patinate? in an envelope, a safe?, a cigar box? I don't know, but it's thick, subdues the luster, but luster shines through, so the surfaces weren't ruined at one point..my guess is it's real old patination.

[MikeKing]

and another dipped, unhairlined, almost untoned bustie that I felt was well done and very presentable, so I bought it. I guess whoever dipped it, didn't do it too long ago, and was just very lucky that it came out this way. Of course, you don't know what can turn in the future, and I don't know if the light 'toning' is residue from the dip, but I'll keep an eye on it, knowing what I know and feeling it's worth it because I can actually see the surfaces and unimpeded luster of a bustie...

[MikeKing]

I actually have a dipped Bustie that has amazing mint FROST on it. I've never seen that on a bustie. How could I not put that in my collection? I won't post the pic because I haven't taken a good photo of it but it's the 1828 curl 2 in my collection. Great looking piece to examine because of it's frostines. Is there dip residue? Possibly. another coin I have to keep an eye on. So, original? the surfaces, the mint frost, that's got to be original, you can't fake that...can you??? but not natural, in that, it had to have been dipped to reveal that.

 

[rrantique]

Interesting post Hi and welcome to the forum Ed.

 

edited to add: I had to wipe the drool off my Keyboard on that 24 Mike K

[MBA101]

Here's an example of a heavily patinated, unhairlined bustie...question is, how did it patinate? in an envelope, a safe?, a cigar box? I don't know, but it's thick, subdues the luster, but luster shines through, so the surfaces weren't ruined at one point..my guess is it's real old patination.

 

May you send me this coin, please? I really need it! (the 1813, that is)

[SuperDave]

You're killing me, Mike.

[crito]

How did they stay relatively "untoned" and ORIGINAL for approximately 200 years?

 

Same way some GSA Morgans from the mint stayed white. They were in the middle of a big bag of silver. The coins on the outside acted as a sacrificial barrier, neutralizing any sulfur laden gases that seeped in.

 

That said, a truly untouched bust half is a real rarity and, considering how many were harshly/abrasively cleaned, even a lightly dipped example is something to be prized, IMHO.

[World Colonial]

I have a few coins (Spanish and Spanish colonial silver) that are completely untoned or with very minor toning. I also find it hard to believe that they survided in this state naturally. But a few of them show no trace (to me anyway) of tampering while others do (a slightly dullish though still attractive look). All of them are in mint state PCGS and NGC holders. Dates range from 1721 to 1817.

[realone]

My parents who are in there 90's have given me their silver eating utensils and their silver coins that have been put away for approx. 80+ years, none of it was cleaned during the 80+ years and all are not black or darkly tarnished. If it were true that everything silver turns black these surely would have in over 80 years of storage. I will tell you that they were always stored in a closet in a hallway or bedroom or a hutch in the dinning room were there was no excessive heat or moisture just a dry enviornment.The silver utensils are still in the felt lined case it was orignially purchased in and the silver dollars in a box. So I don't know who is telling everyone that everything silver turns to black cause I haven't seen in it my family's homes.

 

Second point, if you buy a toned coin, why not get a second opinion from an expert as part of your purchase reigime, if it is AT return it, if it is cleaned return it etc. If enough collectors do it that will help screw the coin doctors.

 

Third point, the only thing turning black/dark in my parents home are: brass, bronze and my father's tools and fireplace equipment. Whatever alloys that aren't silver and aren't stored righ are turning. I would think that collectos who collected 150 years ago were as smart or smarter than many of us modern day collectors and were careful with their precious items. And believe me with the wars, famine, plagues, depressions, and industrialization of the country people were pretty damn conservative then and protected their precious belongings.

[NoTwilight]

Ed,

As for the accumulation of tarnish (I prefer Tarnish for silver and Patina for copper), I'd say it depends on the exposure to air and especially air containing sulfur. Recognizing that these coins have mostly been out of circulation since perhaps the year they were minted for MS and AU coins, they have to have been stored somewhere. If they belonged to a collector and he kept them in a box of some sort and didn't expost them to air much, they would tone much less--assuming the box and storage materials were low sulfur...and then there is the question of what his heirs do. But collectors take thier coins out an look at them so his coin gets fresh sulfur-bearing air occasionally.

 

another class of coins would be a coin passed down from generation to generation for some sentimental reason until finally landing in the possession of some uncaring 17 yr old who sells it to buy weed. This coin may have been looked at infrequently and kept secure in a box with birth certificates etc. Even when the box was open it wasn't taken out of it's package. "Oh, yeah, that's your ancestor's coin in there."

 

One more thing. It may not be clear to the layman (non-scientist) that the small amount of sulfur in the air in a box would be consumed soon and toning would stop until the air was refreshed with more sulfur.

 

So circulated coins, especially in industrial areas, would indeed turn black. Any coin that lived near a volcano would blacken (Mt Lassen is a good example). But a coin in a box in Northern Minnesota might have trouble finding much sulfur.

 

--Jerry

[MikeKing]

I'm also wondering about the role of microbial growth on the surfaces of coins, bacterial and/or mold, that I would suspect would be limited due to lack of nutrients and finally stop, leaving dead organic matter contributing to the final outcome.

[lkenefic]

I'm also wondering about the role of microbial growth on the surfaces of coins, bacterial and/or mold, that I would suspect would be limited due to lack of nutrients and finally stop, leaving dead organic matter contributing to the final outcome.

 

Any microbe whether it be bacteria or mold would need some sort of carbon source if it's undergoing fermentative processes. Most of these byproducts are acidic so I'm sure this wouldn't be great for a reactive metal such as silver...probably worse for copper. The crux is going to be where does the carbon source come from. If it's just oils from someones fingers it's probably not all that detrimental. There's a limited carbon source and a limited amount of normal flora on the coin. If someone dropped it in an open latrine...well... I think I've had coins like that in my collection before...

[PerryHall]

I'm also wondering about the role of microbial growth on the surfaces of coins, bacterial and/or mold, that I would suspect would be limited due to lack of nutrients and finally stop, leaving dead organic matter contributing to the final outcome.

 

Any microbe whether it be bacteria or mold would need some sort of carbon source if it's undergoing fermentative processes. Most of these byproducts are acidic so I'm sure this wouldn't be great for a reactive metal such as silver...probably worse for copper. The crux is going to be where does the carbon source come from. If it's just oils from someones fingers it's probably not all that detrimental. There's a limited carbon source and a limited amount of normal flora on the coin. If someone dropped it in an open latrine...well... I think I've had coins like that in my collection before...

 

I always thought that silver had natural anti-bacterial properties that would prevent bacteria from growing on the surfaces of silver coins.

 

 

 

[MikeKing]

that may be, but bacteria can grow almost anywhere e.g. in concentrated sulfuric acid and other unexpected places. I would suspect that the amount of organic matter on a coin would be limited but a fingerprint carries with it a lot of fat, amino acids and...bacteria. So would saliva, which ends up all over the place just by breathing and coughing, talking, sneezing ... lots of protein in mucus.

 

 

[TomB]

This is a topic that I have wanted to read for the past week, but have avoided simply because I did not have the time to dedicate to the thread. Now, however, I think I can spend a few minutes typing something as a response.

 

It would seem that most of us have different definitions of what may be termed original and I am positive that the level of collector/dealer manipulation that is acceptable to each of us will not be the same. An example of widely acceptable manipulation would be properly dipped coinage where many folks see little harm or are willing to accept a properly dipped coin if the aesthetics of the coin overwhelm the manipulation. I happen to live on an island and consider dipping to be coin doctoring, which is a stance not shared by the vast majority of collectors or dealers, but I find that this viewpoint of numismatics works for me.

 

In my opinion, it would make sense that unmolested, circulated early type might retain a medium depth grey appearance, but that this appearance would not preclude a dark, deep auburn, navy or black base coat. Mint state pieces are much more scarce than their TPG populations would imply, again in my opinion, but I could imagine a much greater range of color and depth of hue in these MS designated coins. Of course, regarless of the grade of these early pieces, I believe the vast majority have been boinked over the years.