Taylor7

On 11/3/2022 at 11:47 AM, Oldhoopster said:

You said

given the reverse die is a ‘64 it seems to me it’s a prototype or pattern or trial piece (whats the difference, anyway?). 

How did you determine that your 1965 SMS has a reverse Of 1964?  I have never heard of such a variety and found nothIng doing an internet search.  Can you please provide a reference or something so we can understand what you're claiming?  

Whenever I find a doubled die which does not match the references I use, I go ahead and check the adjacent years if it’s the reverse die to see if it was reused. 
 

I check the listings on pcgs, ngc, variety vista, and wexlers. 

does anyone know of a more complete database? ANACS pop report lists many but I can’t find photos of them. I don’t understand why the CONECA database isn’t accessible either. 

Hoghead, thank you for putting slabs on scales and reporting numbers, very helpful. 
 

I cracked my coin out and it does not weigh enough to be a 90% silver planchet. 
 

yes, the part about pattern/prototype/trial was smartasserry aka trolling

here are photos of the doubled die if it interests you

https://imgur.com/a/6spDSFR

Imagine being so arrogant you think you know the metallurgic composition of every coin in someone else’s collection, and also calling that someone else delusional. 
 

but I think you actually might be right, it’s not a wrong planchet, that implies an error, given the reverse die is a ‘64 it seems to me it’s a prototype or pattern or trial piece (whats the difference, anyway?). 
 

I’m not jumping to conclusions or offering this for sale yet though, just asking what the tolerance of a slabs weight is and noting the two slabs weigh .83g different! 
 

Why does this upset you so much?

all I asked was what your recently graded halves weigh in their slabs. If you have some lying around and a scale just help a fellow collector out with useful data. 
 

obviously wrong planchets are super rare errors else they wouldn’t be so valuable

if you believe they are so rare it’s pointless to look for them well then there is zero chance you fill find one. You can’t possibly know what I do and don’t have. THAT is insane
 

JPM, 

if you weighed each set and there was a 1g difference between the two in their holders then yes, crack them out! 
 

Wow such hostility when asking such a simple question. Coin grade doesn’t add much value I’ll probably just crack it out so I can really verify it with the specific gravity test you all insist is the standard. 
 

interesting though how it’s a DDR (which is why I submitted it) but after getting it back and being confused/disappointed by the lack of attribution, further inspection revealed the reverse is not the 1965 SMS FS-801 but rather the 1964 business strike DDR FS-801. 
 

I don’t think this is coincidental. 
 

0.83g is the difference between the two. 
 

I’m sure the graders noticed. Why it wasn’t attributed is a different matter entirely. Get it? Different matter… I’ll show myself out. 
 

so from my searching I don’t see any known examples of a 90% silver ‘65 half. The quarters go for up to $20k right? What do you think a half would go for? 

The most recent slab design - does it have a tight tolerance on weight? Would it be appropriate to weigh two slabbed coins and conclude one is on a wrong planchet if the difference matches the difference in planchet weight? If anyone has a few recently slabbed halves and could weigh them and report back it would be much appreciated. Thanks. 

I finally got my hands on a scale I trust and did an SG test and it turns out the coin is not silver. Deleted the WTS post. It was never my intention to scam or deceive, hence the discussion on testing methods and what would constitute proof. I really don't understand the hostility. There is a lot of conflicting information. For example, in the Cherry pickers guide the author states NOT to look at the edge of the coin to differentiate Cu-Ni clad coins from 40% Ag. I suppose its possible the coin is plated, but I don't understand how only the obverse/reverse would be plated and not the edge. I suppose its also possible that since the coin was dipped in E-z-est and many silver coins had been previously dipped that caused the change in color when exposed to sulfur, but I don't think such a small amount of silver could make the coin shine like it does or pass the tissue test. 

I finally got my hands on a scale I trust and did an SG test and it turns out the coin is not silver. Deleted the original post. It was never my intention to scam or deceive, hence the discussion on testing methods and what would constitute proof. I really don't understand the hostility. There is a lot of conflicting information. For example, in the Cherry pickers guide the author states NOT to look at the edge of the coin to differentiate Cu-Ni clad coins from 40% Ag. I suppose its possible the coin is plated, but I don't understand how only the obverse/reverse would be plated and not the edge. I suppose its also possible that since the coin was dipped in E-z-est and many silver coins had been previously dipped that caused the change in color when exposed to sulfur, but I don't think such a small amount of silver could make the coin shine like it does or pass the tissue test. 

On 10/27/2022 at 12:55 PM, EagleRJO said:

Just couldn't let this slide. Absolutely dead wrong again. The US Mint has very tight quality controls on planchets, and for 40% Ag vs Cu-Ni coins there are distinctly different specific gravity values with very small tolerances or variations from established and published SG values (3 significant figures for those who understand scientific methods). Specific gravity tests have been the standard for identifying various coin materials for ages before XRF and other technologies became common and are still used.

Just another excuse to try and scam someone by listing a $0.50 value coin for $13,700.

Please, do link me to a procedure for performing a specific gravity test to three sig figs, and stop slandering me with accusations of fraud when I came here to discuss the possible ways of testing. As I said in the WTS thread, I'm fine with mods deleting it. I'm fine with restricting or monitoring my DMs. I'm not interested in selling it until it can be proven one way or the other. 

I'm not a scam artist, I've tried to have a useful discussion about what tests I can do to determine its metal content. I've proposed using ultraviolet light reflectance, exposure to sulfur, ping test, tissue test, etc. All y'all have told me is to do SG and/or get it graded. 

Y'all insisted I do a SG test, which I did, which also confirms it is silver. 

I understand it is strange the edge is red. I am not claiming to understand how this coin came into existence.

If I could delete this thread and take down the WTS ad until I figure this out, I would.  If mods want to delete the threads go right ahead, I do not care. If you want to leave it up, I also don't care.

Has anyone ever had the experience of being approached at a gas station or electronics store parking lot by someone wanting to sell an iphone, speakers, laptop etc, usually at well below market price? The low price is a red flag for a scam, which is why I raised it.

I do not understand why no one will answer the basic question of "what test would prove it to you" or otherwise engage in the discussion of at home testing methods. 

I didn't come up with the tissue test by the way, I saw this post and thought it was valuable knowledge y'all would appreciate, given that it can be used through plastic for example when the coin is in a binder, holder, album etc and you can't see the rim. 

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/silver-tissue-test.245035/

On 10/24/2022 at 6:10 AM, MarkFeld said:

I and everyone else who has commented think it's a normal example.

Nothing about it indicates otherwise and a specific gravity test should confirm that. Of course if you don't trust dealers or grading companies, there's' no reason to have the coin checked out.

Another alterative would be to buy a couple examples of that date and examine their edges. Even though the color might show minor variances, it will likely be very close and hopefully give you peace of mind. 

The specific gravity test in fact confirmed it was silver. Not with a great degree of confidence. Did you even read my post? The tissue test confirms it is silver. The sulfur exposure test confirms it is silver. I have plenty of examples of 60s and 70s Kennedy halves but none which are half red on one side of the rim and silver on the other side. Very curious. 

I didn't say I don't trust dealers or coin grading companies, I'm simply asking the hypothetical (out of curiosity), if they didn't exist and you wanted to purchase such a coin from someone on a forum such as this (where you might not trust the seller) what tests would convince you it was real and how would the person need to present that test (live stream of said tests being performed?) to convince you. 

Very strange how many experts here refuse to answer that simple question. 

"it doesn't look like anything to me" you all keep saying

On 10/24/2022 at 4:20 AM, MarkFeld said:

Here’s the other image referenced above (which also shows that the coin isn’t a silver planchet error):

 

So what do you think it is then? Have you ever seen a coin with a rim like this where one side is mostly red and the other mostly silver? If its plated, how do I tell?

I'm willing to take down the sale ad until it gets figured out but my questions about exactly what tests to perform to prove its silver and genuine have largely gone unanswered. I did a specific gravity test using both a plastic set of tweezers and then a bent paperclip to lower the coin into distilled water but the reading on the scale fluctuates so much I don't find that test conclusive. A CuNi clad coin is 8.92g/cm3 and an Au clad is 9.53g/cm3 and I'm measuring 9.6+/- .4 g/cm3, which also supports my belief the coin is silver and not just plated. 

You omitted the picture of the rim which shows only half is red. Quite the oddity. 

So that y'all don't think I am a scammer trying to bait someone into purchasing the coin hoping to quickly flip it, I've decided to raise the price to what I believe is fair market value, non negotiable. $13,700. 

I would just like to add, if I was a scammer, why on earth would I have mentioned the XRF test? I could have just as easily told a story about going to a jewelry store and having it tested and being told it was silver. I mention that because I am an honest person, unlike the people who have wasted considerable time and effort attempting to deceive me. I wanted those people to know they had failed, and that they are pathetic for making such attempts. I want all of you to know that there are people in this world so petulant and pathetic they will corrupt anything and everything they can to punish those who challenge their cult and its dear leader. Do not let them tell you up is down, black is white, or any other obvious lie unchallenged. 

On 10/23/2022 at 4:42 AM, EagleRJO said:

He is trying to sell this coin as a rare struck on Au clad planchet error for $9,100 on the Coin Marketplace of this board.

This is despite being told pics show a normal Cu-Ni coin which was verified by XRF testing that he doesn't believe (hence the invalid junk science "egg test") and refuses to do simple SG tests to get an indication if it's worth submitting to a TPG because he knows what the results will be.

It is scam baiting plain and simple, and imo that listing should be removed until he submits the coin to a TPG for attribution.

I will report CG tests when I am able to obtain an accurate enough scale for that measurement to be of value, but even then unless I live stream a video of said test (live stream because a pre-recorded video might be edited) you will probably still insist I am lying. Below is the message I sent to forum moderators when I reported your post. GOOD DAY SIR. 

Quote

This is slander. EagleRJO insists sulfur does not cause silver to rapidly tone, which is many centuries old chemistry. there are countless Youtube videos demonstrating this effect, and with minimal cost and effort he could do the experiment himself but instead insists on calling it "junk science" without explanation and insists I am a scammer. Please prevent him from commenting on my posts, he ads nothing of value to the conversation and is an embarrassment to American numismatics.  

On 10/23/2022 at 3:41 AM, J P M said:

Sulfur will change the color of lots of things. I had a house on a sulfur marsh full of brown carpet that turned green. There could have been something on the surface of the coin and that is what toned not the presence of silver. Sorry not a good test in my book. I will trust my eyes on this one and say this coin is not even MS Clad. 

in performing a scientific test we have what are called "controls". The idea is you do the test not only on the items of interest, but also on others to verify the test works as expected. I placed dozens of coins in the container, some of which were silver junk, some of which were clad junk, and some of which I suspected were silver because they passed other tests like the ping and tissue test. I divided the controls into two sub groups, one group was dipped in e-z-est, rinsed with high pressure water, then distilled water. This ensured there were no other contaminants that could have caused a change in color. The '71 here was also dipped and rinsed for the same reason. 

The coins I knew were silver behaved like the coin discussed here - yellow toning developed on the part of the coin protruding from the 2x2. 

The coins I knew were copper nickel clad did not develop any toning in the exposed area. 

The test revealed this coin is silver, conclusively. 

If you insist I am lying or the test performed is not conclusive, please answer the question "what would it take to convince you?" 

Everyone commenting in this thread insisting the coin is not silver and refusing to answer that question is clearly acting in bad faith. 

On 10/23/2022 at 3:19 AM, J P M said:

Ok slick, ,,This has been fun but the fact remains it is a 1971 D. A nice strike as would be expected in a Denver coin. We still have not seen the reverse which is also used to determine the grade and should have been in the first shots. Or you can post the reverse in a day or so and drag this thread out a little longer.  If you send it in for grading it may come back a 65 and you will still have a coin no one wants to pay top dollar for. Everyone who posted was more than willing to give you good advice but you insist this coin is something special.................. It is NOT............... I hope you do not try to sell it that way.    

The coin is special, as it is silver. I know this from the chemical test I did exposing it to sulfur. I understand why you may not believe this, but I have asked above (with a variety of proposed methods) and will ask again what do I need to do to convince you that it is silver, and what do I need to do to convince you the silver is not a post minting modification? 

things are getting even stranger. The rim is red on one side and silver on the other.

the color of the rim could be rainbow or vanta black or any color under the sun, that wouldn't change the fact that the faces have silver. I've proven this to myself with the sulfur egg test, understandably some of you accuse me of faking that, so how can I convince you of this fact or determine if the silver on the faces are plating or some other modification. 

I'm not a scammer, and I'm not terribly surprised many of you do not believe the evidence I've presented thus far. I simply ask that you tell me exactly what it would take to convince you, not just so I can sell this coin (or set it free by spending it), but so that anyone reading the thread in the future can learn from it too. Lets keep the discussion in the other thread. I do regret my flippant, accusatory tone, but if you'd been through what I have, seen the things I've seen, you'd lose your cool sometimes too. 

On 10/22/2022 at 7:14 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Sorry to say but the core Layer is copper, which is found on cupronickel coins.  The core layer of 40% silver is 21% silver and 79% copper and that alloy has a silvery color.  Go compare the edge of your coin to that of other 1965-70 halves.  You'll easily see that the core layer doesn't match

I think that last piece of information showing the edge pic is all the proof you need to show it's the standard copper nickel alloy and not a transitional error

If there was no silver it would not have toned like it did in the presence of sulfur. I did this test with a control group of silver coins and clad coins to be sure. 
 

so perhaps this coin is not simply a 71 struck on a 70 planchet? What else could it be? Foreign planchet? Test article? 
 

just assume it has silver since it toned like it did, even if you don’t want to buy it, even if you caution others from buying it, simply asserting I’m being dishonest isn’t going to solve this mystery. 

On 10/22/2022 at 6:50 PM, EagleRJO said:

You have your answer even if you can't bring yourself to accept the results or verify them yourself by doing simple and accurate SG tests.

Add more tin foil or try to scam someone else!

On 10/22/2022 at 6:27 PM, Oldhoopster said:

So you're saying that someone hacked the jewelry store XRF or convinced them to give misleading info?  And this same group may Be hacking the TPGs? 

You do understand that the handheld XRF are stand alone units and don't require internet access to work.  Sort of makes it hard to hack now, doesn't it.  More info on handheld XRFs if you want to understand how they work. https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/portable-xrf-analyzer-price

You have offered no verifiable proof even though you've been offered expert advice. Maybe you should try trolling/scamming the other coin forums.  Guarantee you'll get the same answers you got here

The XRF machine at the jewelry store is not placed such that the customer can see its results. Could’ve been human error. I did mention the clerk was distracted a few times in the process so he might have recorded a different coins results in error. This was not a handheld unit, checked the specs and it is networked. I have some other bizarre experiences though that lead me to believe my more paranoid interpretation of events is more likely. I’m not interested in explaining why all this is happening here. I don’t blame you for thinking this sounds insane. 
 

so what would be proof? If I were to repeat the experiment but record a Timelapse video of the entire process so you can see the coin toning would you find that convincing? Should I instead live stream the experiment and interact with the chat so you know the video wasn’t edited? 
 

I will admit for this kind of money there are scammers out there who would paint the edge of a coin and claim it was sulfur toning so I’m happy to provide additional proof to your satisfaction. This is something of a social experiment I’m conducting tbh. It’s interesting because this coin predates the first coin grading company, ANACS, so how did collectors of such errors authenticate them before then? By the way, I called ANACS and was surprised to learn they do not XRF test, only weight. 
 

are there microscopic differences in the texture and metal flow lines between silver and cu-ni that I could look for? 
 

Seriously, besides sending it off for grading (still considering this but thought I’d see what offers I got on it raw first as my grandmother needs financial assistance asap), what would you consider proof? 
 

exactly what specific gravity would you consider high enough to conclude it was silver clad? Do you have any other silver clad halves weighing only 11.3g (regardless of year) in UNC condition to compare it to? 
 

would you like to see video of the ice cube test or tissue paper test? 
 

should I find a high accuracy way to measure its electric resistance? 
 

video of the ping test? Waterfall plots of the audio of the ping test? 
 

is there any test that would convince you, coming from me rather than a grading company? That’s the real question here. 

I’d gladly do an SG test just to satisfy you but don’t trust the scale I have, so I’ll post results when I get a new one. 

Not one congratulations on the find. Not one thanks for the useful info. Just pathetic anger at seeing someone you dislike succeed. 
 

This is what y’all look like right now:

The physics of XRF is quite sound, what I don’t trust is the firmware, the stores network security, or their staff. I’ve been targeted by a lot of pathetic online and offline harassment and believe this is one more example. 
 

The other NGC graded example also weighs only 11.3g so the assertion the tolerances are tight is demonstrably false. 
 

if grading companies were infallible and or final there would be no cross grading, regrading, or crack out game. 
 

if the people harassing me can hack a jewelry stores XRF or convince them to deceive me, what makes you think they can’t do the same to a grading company or mail service. 
 

I’ll post photos of the edge shortly

Photos added. I'll take edge photos shortly. 

I've never claimed to be good at grading but if I must I'd say 62