medved

On 1/30/2024 at 6:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Unfortunately, the vast majority of members, I assume, do not collect these coins, are unfamiliar with them and may have never seen them -- or the countries they are from.

Absolutely agree

On 1/30/2024 at 6:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

On a hunch, curious as to why no one has responded to your entreaties, positively or negatively.

This is not a main point of this article.

On 1/30/2024 at 6:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I checked the numbers on these Baltic States. What I found is confounding.  There are 80 set registrants of Lithuanian coins, the same number collecting gold roosters. Another 167 collecting coins from Latvia, and a whopping 392 collecting the coins from Estonia.

A lot of people collect coins from these Baltic countries. In Europe, in these countries themselves, and in Russia. On Russian and European numismatic forums, there are entire sections on coins of the countries of the former USSR. Many varieties of these coins became known with the help of Russian collectors. Moreover, a lot of people do not like slabs and prefer to have the opportunity to hold a coin in their hands. Many people break slabs and take coins out of them to put in an album or special box. This number of users that you counted on the NGC forum is a small drop in the ocean of collectors of these coins. It is obvious to many that NGC and other similar companies have nothing to do with numismatics. These are companies that simply make money from fans of plastic boxes. If you take three large silver coins and take them out of the slabs, 95% of the collectors of these slabs will not be able to tell where MS64, MS65 & MS66 are.

On 1/30/2024 at 6:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

the OP, a fellow hobbyist is encountering problems regarding attributions?

I'm not an amateur collector. I am a professional numismatist. Few people are as familiar with Latvian coins as I am; I wrote many articles about these coins, including publications in numismatic magazines. Currently, I am working on a book about Latvian coins. 10 years ago, I received a silver medal for my article at a European forum. And believe me, I have absolutely no problems with the attribution of these coins. NGC has problems with this, not me.

On 1/30/2024 at 6:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I see two options:  One, PM a set registrants, and/or, Two:  Avail yourself of the "Ask NGC" thread which is among a few that may be found preceding the main body of Topic offerings.  You have nothing to lose. Considering mail volume, I would limit my query to the aspect of attribution that concerns you most.

This is not the point of this article. 
It is very hard to communicate with "American-style" people (I don't want to insult Americans), but usually answer (if the answer will be) something like that: "I don't know", "I can't guarantee", "Wait our response", "We think you are not right" etc.
The main point to show the quality of the work of NGC, this is it.

Link to the PDF file with article and pictures

On 1/28/2024 at 11:27 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Incidentally, what does your notation,  "Rooster Mint Mark -- Checkmate" mean?

It is not very hard to check what kind of coin you are checking, especially if it is a modern European coin, especially if you take money for that, especially if you take additional money for that.
How is possible to recognize a die chip as a mint mark? OK, even if this error looks like a mint mark, no need special skills to ask Google about the Bank of Lithuania, open the link and open the page with the coins list, where you can see the mint name, etc. You don't need even catalogs for that.
This phrase means - "We don't care, we just take money - and this is the mint mark"

About Latvian coins, you can read here - People who moderate this catalog are much more familiar with these type of coins than NGC experts. Probably you will see there the name "Mihails Božko" this is my name, nice to meet you.

About this article. People who will read, can believe me or not - I really don't care. But very strange do not believe in Lithuanian coin for example. You have the fact of minting coin at Lithuania mint, you have official letter from Lithuanian bank, and you have NGC slab. Anyway, the people who are familiar with these coins will see and understand how NGC working.

All the Best,

Mihails Božko

Latvian Numismatic Society
mihailbozko@gmail.com

+371 26019060

I understand that grading and numismatics are different things. Grading is simply a business and the provision of services. But when we receive a service for our money, we want to receive a quality service performed by professionals. But not a fault made by an amateur. I won’t talk about the numbers given to coins - these are all subjective things. Although, I just can’t understand how MS65 can be given to the coin with green oxide stains on it. (Latvia 1 santims 1922 MS65RB 5790621-006)
I want to talk about something else. I will not describe all the examples (believe me there are many), I will only touch on some of them. We will talk about the coins of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. I understand that these are small countries, and many people do not even know about their existence, nevertheless, coins from these countries are also sent to NGC for grading.

Estonia
3 marka 1926. Unfortunately, the photo of the slabbed coin is not available (my SSD broke, and a lot of data was lost), but the photos of the coin before grading are still available.

3 marka 1926 obverse          3 marka 1926 reverse

The coin was sent to NGC between 2011 and 2016. The coin was counterfeit, but was graded by NGC as "XF Details". The counterfeit coin differed from the original by weight, color and edge shape.

Edge of original coin          Edge of counterfeit coin

Moreover, there were traces on the rim of the coin after the edge was forming. It's hard to see the traces on the rim of the coin in these old photos. But I have a photo of another similar counterfeit coin, and these marks are very clearly visible, they go along the entire rim, and are especially clearly visible in the upper part of the coin. This type of counterfeit was made in Lithuania.

Photo of the counterfeit coin with traces on the rim

So, how could such a coin be sealed in a slab, if only one edge shows that it is a counterfeit coin?

OK next Latvia, a few examples of slab descriptions.
The first example is my favorite. 1 santims 1928 with the inscription on the coin "Name below ribbon" (MS65RB 2760076-006).

2760076-006 Obverse          2760076-006 Reverse

Let's look at the "names" on the bronze coins.

Location of the "names"          The "names"

There are two types of "names", the first is the designer's name "R. ZARRINS" found on the reverse of the coin. Please note that there are no ribbons on the reverse! Another "name" HUGUENIN is on the obverse of the coins under the coat of arms ribbon. But only on bronze coins dated 1922-1924! Why? Because only these Latvian coins were minted in Switzerland at the Huguenin Freres & Co mint and were marked by mint with the mint's name! All other silver coins and bronze coins from 1926-1935 were minted in the UK at three different mints, none of which marked the coins with their name!

Question. How can a 1928 coin minted in the UK have the “name” of the Swiss mint on it? Moreover, how did the NGC find the “name” of the Swiss mint on a 1928 coin and write it on the slab? What kind of super-mega-vision did they use for this?

OK, the next modern coin, dated 1996, hope it will be easier for NGC, but….

10 latu 1996 "Corncrake" obverse        10 latu 1996 "Corncrake" reverse

There are four types, which we know now and which are easy to identify. All four types have differences on the obverse and reverse, but the easiest way to determine them is by obverse and edge.
The first two types – Large Letters and Small Letters. Easily identified by the letter “E” (both coins have a lettered edge).

Large/Small letters

Normally all coins have lettered edges, but some of them have ribbed edges – this is type #3

Lettered/Ribbed Edge

And the last type – coins dated 1995

1995 Corncrake

The obverse was minted using one of the dies from the previous 10 latu 1995 “Gaff-sail schooner Julia Maria”. Which was minted at the same mint.

10 latu 1995 "Julia Maria" obverse          10 latu 1995 "Julia Maria" reverse

So, you can see 4 types (varieties) which very simply can be identified, isn’t it?

The story begins with a coin with a ribbed edge. A description of the coin was made for the NGC, in which an explanation was given with images that there is an edge with an inscription and a ribbed edge, and a request was made to indicate on the slab variety (that this coin has a ribbed edge). All information was printed and submitted with the NGC form, where "variety" was noted. The result is that they took money for the variety but did not write anything on the slab.

Result #1

OK, I tried to send it one more time and made a huge description that explained the all differences between coins. All possible varieties, a lot of images etc. And ask please write “Reeded edge”. The result this:

Result #2

“RE - Griffin with tail”. What is it? Is it a problem to write just “Ribbed Edge”?

OK, third take. I send a few coins and write again a new, huge letter. Moreover, I found the coin with the correct normal description added the number of this coin to my letter and asked NGC a third time - Is it possible to mention on the slabs “Reeded Edge”? Pay money for variety third time of course. I also explained in my letter that mentioning “Griffin with tale” is not correct regarding this “Corncrake” coin, because ALL these coins have “Griffin with tail” and no coins exist with “Griffin without tale”. I explained that “with or without tale” varieties exist, but regarding another coin, not “Corncrake”, but 10 latu 1995 “Gaff-sail schooner Julia Maria”. “Julia Maria” has 5 different varieties of obverse – one of them - ”Griffin without tale”. But “Corncrake” – don’t have!

"Julia Maria with tale"          "Julia Maria without tale"

So please write on the slabs: “Lettered Edge” and “Reeded Edge” – That’s all I asking. Again everything was printed and sent together with the form. The result:

Result #3.1          Result#3.2

Three times asked, three times paid money for that, an example of a coin with the correct inscription was shown, three times sending printed explanation letters with images of varieties. I cannot understand what kind of insufficiently_thoughtful_person is working there, I give up, I'm very tired of trying to explain to the dumb people elementary things.

And the last story about Latvian coins will be about 2 santimi 1937. There are two slabs 3352292-010 and 3212458-001. And both of them are counterfeit! These coins were made in Lithuania.

First, both of them do have not correct weights. The correct weight of these coins must be 1.99 – 2.00 g. The counterfeit coins are usually 2.3 – 2.6 g, sometimes 1.90 g. And the second thing which every amateur collector of Latvian coin knows – it is a mark on the leaf under the coat of arms. The stripe on the leaf. If you see this stripe, you know – this is a 100% counterfeit coin.

Mark on counterfeit coin

No comments.

And now let’s talk about Lithuania. The last straw of the dilettantism of the NGC into my cup of patience. After that, I decided to write this article.
We will talk about 5 litai 1999 coins. Some of them with striking errors which can be called “die chip”

5 litai 1999 with error

This piece of metal looks like a bird or rooster, that’s why some people sometimes call these coins “5 litai with bird”. Some of the amateurs think – this is the mint mark, but we know that these coins were minted on the Lithuanian mint and the mint mark of this mint looks different. But the Lithuanian mint never used mint marks on these coins. Moreover, a request was made to the Lithuanian Bank regarding this error. An answer was received. It is saying: “In response to your letter, we inform you that the speck you indicated on the surface of the coin, located on the left side of the reverse, is not an element of design, but a small technological defect, within the acceptable limits of the approved technical requirements for the circulating 5 litas of the Republic of Lithuania.”

Official Bank's answer

So, you can see – the usual die error. But what NGC said?

NGC graded 5 litai 1999

Rooster Mint Mark – Checkmate!
 

Dear NGC if you don’t have enough experts who can recognize coins of Baltic States – maybe I can help? For free! I'm very tired of seeing what you're doing with these coins. Totally zero professionalism.

P.S. Later I'll make pdf file with images, here I cannot add normally.

Reply from NGC:

Hello Mihails,
Thank you for contacting NGC. We try to provide as much information as possible on getting these coins to us safely on our How to Package Coins for Submission page. We believe your coins will arrive safely this way. You are able to add bubble wrap as well if you believe it necessary. Please let us know if we can further assist.

My replay:

Good Day, yes I know this article, but this article doesn’t answer my question.
If the coin is designed and minted without RIM and I will remove it from the original Bank’s capsule – nothing will protect it from micro scratches inside the flip.
So, is it possible for such coins like https://monetas.bank.lv/en/coins/coin-of-fortune to send in the original capsule to avoid damage inside the flip??? By the way, all bubble wrap contains PVC! Thank you!

NGC reply:

Hello Mihails,
Thank you for your response. As long as your coin is easy to remove from the capsule then this one coin is fine to come in the capsule, but if our graders have any difficulty opening the capsule it will not be graded.
 

Now I am thinking about how to understand whether it is an easy-open capsule or not 

Good Day.
I have a question about sending coins to NGC for grading. The coins must be sent in plastic pocket holders only, not in capsules. It’s OK – no questions, but if my Proof coin doesn’t have a rim? Like for example this coin: https://monetas.bank.lv/en/coins/coin-of-fortune. How I can avoid moving coins inside the pocket? How I can avoid micro-scratches which can be? Is it a big problem to send coins in capsules if most of the Proof coins are already in the capsules?

Thank you

Request for set correction

Country: Latvia

Set’s name: Santīms 1992-2013

20 santimu list must be corrected (#18-23).

There are 4 coins that must be in the list:

·         20 santimu 1992 (KM#22.1)

·         20 santimu 1992 (Brass Plated Steel) or (Magnetic Alloy) (KM#22.2)

·         20 santimu 2007 (KM#22.1)

·         20 santimu 2009 (KM#22.1)

Now the list looks like this (please see picture):

#18 – Without a date, need to remove it from the list
#19 – Without a date, need to remove it from the list
#20 – I advise removing the inscription “Nickel Brass” and leaving just the value and date “20 santimu 1992” to be similar to #22 and #23 because it is the same coins from the same alloy (Originally standard coins from the correct alloy) KM#22.1. But if you don’t agree with that, this alloy must be written correctly. Bank of Latvia website - ”Material: alloy of copper, nickel, and zinc”. In the coin sets written: “Cu/Ni/Zn”.
#21 – KM#22.2 I advise changing the inscription “Copper-Nickel” to “20 santimu 1992 Magnetic Alloy”. Because the collectors of Latvia coins recognize these 20 santimu 1992 coins as “magnetic” or “non-magnetic”, most of them don’t even know about the alloy from which the coins were minted 😊. This will be the best and easiest way for all (You can also check my coin 3938057-083 MS66 – written “Magnetic Alloy”). But if you don’t agree with that, this alloy must be written correctly. The correct alloy is “Brass plated Steel” “Brass clad Steel” or “German 10 pfennig Planchet”. Anyway, this is absolutely not a “Copper-Nickel” like it is written now!
#22 – Changes not needed
#22 – Changes not needed

On 10/17/2022 at 4:40 AM, medved said:

Hi there, I'd like to ask you to add a new set.

Latvia
Modern Republic, (1992 - Date)
1 santims (KM#15) & 2 santimi (KM#21) 1992-2009

Set includes all Cooper Clad Steel coins from the beginning of coinage of Modern Republic till Euro era.
11 coins:
1 santims 1992 - 5785992-018
1 santims 1997 - 6631703-008
1 santims 2003 - 6631703-009
1 santims 2005 - 6631703-010
1 santims 2007 - 6631703-011
1 santims 2008 - 6631703-012
2 santimi 1992 - 5785993-002
2 santimi 2000 - 6631703-004
2 santimi 2006 - 6631703-005
2 santimi 2007 - 6631703-006
2 santimi 2009 - 6631703-007

Thank you!

I wrote this post 3.5 months ago. Can you tell me please how long usually need to wait, to hear YES or NO???

On 10/18/2022 at 8:49 AM, medved said:

Yes, no problem:
1 santims 1992 - 5785992-018
1 santims 1997 - 6631703-008
1 santims 2003 - 6631703-009
1 santims 2005 - 6631703-010
1 santims 2007 - 6631703-011
1 santims 2008 - 6631703-012
2 santimi 1992 - 5785993-002
2 santimi 2000 - 6631703-004
2 santimi 2006 - 6631703-005
2 santimi 2007 - 6631703-006
2 santimi 2009 - 6631703-007

How long usually need to wait your action/reaction?

On 10/17/2022 at 11:30 PM, Ali E. said:

Hello, medved.

Will you please provide your related NGC cert. numbers, so we may research your request? Thanks very much.

Yes, no problem:
1 santims 1992 - 5785992-018
1 santims 1997 - 6631703-008
1 santims 2003 - 6631703-009
1 santims 2005 - 6631703-010
1 santims 2007 - 6631703-011
1 santims 2008 - 6631703-012
2 santimi 1992 - 5785993-002
2 santimi 2000 - 6631703-004
2 santimi 2006 - 6631703-005
2 santimi 2007 - 6631703-006
2 santimi 2009 - 6631703-007

Yesterday found in Census this description of Latvian pattern bronze coin
Latvia. 1 santims 1923 MS64RBP
Mint State 64 Red-Brown... so the question is: What is "P"?

Hi there, I'd like to ask you to add a new set.

Latvia
Modern Republic, (1992 - Date)
1 santims (KM#15) & 2 santimi (KM#21) 1992-2009

Set includes all Cooper Clad Steel coins from the beginning of coinage of Modern Republic till Euro era.
11 coins:
1 santims 1992 - 5785992-018
1 santims 1997 - 6631703-008
1 santims 2003 - 6631703-009
1 santims 2005 - 6631703-010
1 santims 2007 - 6631703-011
1 santims 2008 - 6631703-012
2 santimi 1992 - 5785993-002
2 santimi 2000 - 6631703-004
2 santimi 2006 - 6631703-005
2 santimi 2007 - 6631703-006
2 santimi 2009 - 6631703-007

Thank you!

Result

On 11/6/2021 at 1:58 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Mint Error is the correct designation for this coin. Any idea how many were produced?

Coins on German planchets arrived at the Bank of Latvia in bags, mixed with ordinary coins. Therefore, their number is unknown to anyone. The official letter is dated September 9, 1993, the coins entered circulation on June 28, 1993. That is, a certain amount of coins fell into circulation within two months. Then the coins getting into the bank began to be withdrawn from circulation. How many coins have left now, after 30 years, is unknown. Latvia has switched to the euro since 2014.

The same coins, but different descriptions. "Magnetic alloy" is characterized as a variety in the Census, others like errors of usual coins.

Interesting mint error. We are lucky and we can get acquainted with the official information about this error coin.
About 10 years ago it was impossible to find this coin in UNC condition, but now it is much easier.

Translation:
"Bank of Latvia
For official use
09.09.93 / 10.1 – 213
For all Latvian Bank's departments and Commercial banks
Bring to your attention that a small amount of 20 centimes coins puts into circulation, which through the fault of the German mint were made from different metal alloy (this alloy is used for a German 10 pfennigs coinage). The following distinctive features of coins are:
1) In some cases there are white metal on the edge of a coin (see the German 10 pfennigs),
2) Differences of magnetic property - coins are attracted under the influence of magnet (Original 20 centimes coins don't react on a magnetic field),
3) Differences in weight (see the German 10 pfennigs),
4) Differences in thickness.
Other differences are not present. In case of doubt consult in Bank of Latvia. Coins with the mentioned defect considered as full-fledged legal tender, but further are withdrawn from circulation and hand over to the Bank of Latvia.
Pass this information to all bank's cashiers which are occupied with the calculation and reception of cash.
President E. Repše"

Usually, you don't need a magnet to check the coin, you can recognize a "magnetic" coin by a grey stripe on its edge. Photos of another XF magnetic coin with the usual coin please see below.

On 7/28/2021 at 3:49 PM, Ali E. said:

Hello and thank you for your interest. The. team has concluded these coins currently have adequate representation in the Type Set. We do not see you have any NGC Registry sets. If you need assistance creating a set, please let us know, we are happy to assist.

The set was deleted because I cannot add ALL coins of this period, only types. What kind of set is it where I can add only a few coins, but not all dates (IMHO this is ridiculous)
If I collect these coins by dates and values, why I cannot add them to an adequate list.
OK, if you think I'm not right, let see, you have sets with 1 santim, 2 santims and 5 lati, but where are 5, 10, 20, 50 santims sets in this way? Where are the 1 lats and 2 lats sets? Where is the logic?
I have all coins (except patterns) of this period, but I can add only types - very strange

Hello, request about the Latvia set.
Now available:
a) First Republic Type Set, 1918-1939, Circulation Issue
b) Santims, 1922-1939, Circulation Issue
c) 2 Santimi, 1922 - 1939, Circulation Issue
d) 5 lati, 1929 - 1932, Circulation Issue

I'd like to ask to add a set almost like first, but not only types:
"First Republic, The all dates and all values, Circulation Issue"
My coins for this set:
2795446-026
2770990-011
2758706-019
2770990-012
2760076-006
2769170-004
2769170-005
4711172-024
5776582-015
3929783-009
2803545-133
2788076-024
2794039-133
2807639-021
5774620-020
2760076-014

On 7/16/2021 at 9:05 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

email the TPG direct

Where I can find this e-mail? And what is TPG?

Another situation with Latvian KM#22.2 coin
First time i got from NGC coin labeled like usual KM#22.1
So I paid twice to get correct label

On 7/16/2021 at 8:03 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I'm way less hung up on stuff like this now, "Mechanical Errors" or label errors happen with all TPG's sometimes it's just human error or the SCWC is wrong, etc.. With coins like these the SCWC is probably their go to and if they are not well know coins, the TPG may need a little help identifying coin and strike. The more information a person can give them when submitting, either on the form or additional documents and original mint packaging helps insure that the label is correct. That's been my experience anyway. I know that this may not be a viable option for you or your friend as you are based overseas but I'm sure NGC would be happy to relabel these at no cost if they were shipped back to them and proper documentation provided. When any TPG grades 50 million coins there are going to be a few wrong labels. I know it's annoying but the ball is in your friends court now, if he wants to have them corrected he can. 

Unfortunately, they don't care about our arguments. For example:
I have two coins 10 latu 1996 Endangered Wildlife "Corncrake". As you can see in Krause the edge has inscription. Same description has Latvian Bank's web page.
But one of them has mint error with ribbed edge. And my dealer sent this coin like mint error with full description of this coin why it is must be labeled like a mint error. 
As you can see on the label, according NGC - they are the same coins.
By the way ribbed edge coin was send to Latvian bank for attribution, because a long time our local collectors thought - this is a fake, but Bank of Latvia told to our society - this is not a fake - this is mint error.
I even have unofficial COA with ribbed edge coin :-)

These two slabs

Another example, now NGC.
Latvian coins dedicated to Song festival (Ag & CuNi) and dedicated Latvian ABC (Ag & CuNi)
CuNi - Brilliant Uncirculated quality, Silver coins - Proof quality
And my friend has two NGC slabs with CuNi coins graded PF

To be honest, sometimes, not very easy to get a clear understanding of designation. 
For example - Brilliant Uncirculated
NGC Glossary said: an adjectival grade which NGC defines as being MS 60 or higher
PCGS: A generic term applied to any coin that has not been in circulation. It often is applied to coins with little "brilliance" left, which properly should be described as simply Uncirculated.
As you can see, by these descriptions this is the condition of coins.

But for example in Europe (in many European countries) it is the quality of the minting, not the condition of the coins. Sometimes these coins are called: "Coins of the improved quality" or "Coins of the improved minting". You can also find a video of the Royal Mint on YouTube, which explains and shows that specially prepared dies are used for the production of such coins.

Moreover, if we will take a description of USSR commemorative 1 rouble coins, we will find another type of designation (Very strange designation IMHO). (Please see image below I will translate and try to explain "European style")
1) "ОБ" - Usual circulation coins - These are coins for circulation which we can get from a roll or from coin sack or another package and can call this minting method like "usual strike". We can also call these coins from rolls - UNC coins
2) "АНЦ" - "Uncirculated" - Coins of the improved quality in package - Coins of the improved quality minted using other dies (dies not for a usual strike, but not a proof dies as well). Quality Brilliant Uncirculated. (Please see coin card below)
3) "Полир стар" - Сoins with mirrored field and matte details - Proof quality or Proof-like quality
4) "Полир нов" - Date "1988" on the edge - "NOVODEL" or "Restrike" 19 coins with same design, but Edge inscription has date "1988" and letter "H" (Новодел). Proof quality

I just trying to tell - every country has their own "Glossary" and sometimes the same designations can mean different things. In this way very hard to understand some things, especially if English is not your native language.

On 7/16/2021 at 12:05 AM, RWB said:

• There is nothing to support use of "specimen." (This implies a special event surrounding a specific piece, only.)
• Use the issuer's designation.
• If visually justified, add "DMPL" or something similar to describe the surfaces.

Dear RWB, I try to explain again. I know how to designate this coin. The question was about situation. Why we have different designations on the slab and on the web page and how it is possible?

On 7/16/2021 at 12:10 AM, Just Bob said:

I'm sorry, but I am confused by this thread. You got an answer from someone on another forum, who stated that PCGS had changed their designation on a number of coin types over the years. That seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation, to me. You also apparently did not feel the need to contact PCGS to answer your question. So, I guess I am wondering: What additional information were you hoping to get from this thread?

Why you so confused? Can you imagine I got the answer from other forum AFTER I post this topic here :-)
Why I didn't ask PCGS? From professional numismatists on different forums you can get the answer very fast. So I got the answer after one hour after I post this topic here. And I like to communicate with people on the forums.
The question was about situation. Why we have different designations on the slab and on the web page and how it is possible? Because this is first time when I see this. Now I got the answer - Thank you!
I hope now everything clear.