Voltyris

14 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I see the same "lag" on other Saints too, WC, and they are sold pretty frequently.  It looks like they have the raw data -- ecent auctions -- uploaded, whatever they do to calculate price is just off. 

Maybe it's a smoothed monthly average or something, dunno. 

It's completely botched. There's no sense behind their guide : ) 

Hello GoldFinger!

Hahah, the NGC price guide is in a different league. Really cements NGC's position as the No.1 in the industry, with a No.1 overestimation in price of each coin out there. PCGS' guide is more reasonable.

CDN: https://www.greysheet.com - is the best realistic guide out there. Collector/Dealer friendly, featuring prices for both parties.

--------------------------------

I like to think of the NGC price guide as the max price you should pay for a coin. It's a way for NGC to tell you, do not, under any circumstances, pay more than this amount : )

This is the only use I have for it. I bid the Price Guide Value if the coin in question is a brilliant one, or rather an attractive toned one (in my opinion). 

What's the best solution? A collector should conduct his own research based on latest auction realized prices, through NGC/PCGS auction realized prices portal. This is as accurate as it gets. Taking into consideration the features of the coin, surfaces, strike, etc... to determine min/average/max price to bid. 

On 5/11/2020 at 2:59 AM, oceanbert said:

Go luck with reaching someone, I have sent three emails and gotten zero answers. 

But NGC remains fully operational! Not a single phone wire down.

10 hours ago, numisport said:

I have followed these at GC but have quit before the moon money was bid. Here are a couple I did win.

Lovely, at least you managed to come out with a few coins from the collection! Now be sure to mention this to anyone buying them in the future, specially at GC, so you can land that moon money.

GC's photography of the coins is a definite plus as well, enjoy your new wins : )

17 hours ago, numisport said:

All nice coins but I'm confused about the phrase "improperly cleaned". Wouldn't ANY cleaning be improper ?

Well, to my knowledge, they classify cleaning into three categories: 

1- Cleaned: A details grade with the term "Cleaned". Implying the coin was cleaned but still managed to maintain its grace. Probably a good cleaning job.

2- Improperly Cleaned: A details grade with the term "Improperly Cleaned". The Coin has lost its grace. Botched cleaning job. Someone wasn't a gentleman to the coin.

3- Numismatic Conservation Services™ (NCS®): In this situation, you send a coin to be cleaned by NGC. Pro cleaning. It's like when you hire a professional cleaner to clean a crime scene and hide the body. In this case, your coin is innocent of any crimes committed. Now don't forget, NGC might botch the job as well, no guarantees. It's conserved first then sent to grading. Oh and it is called "conserving", never "cleaning".

---------------------

For a coin to be cleaned and still manage to win a straight grade, it has to be a job well done, too good for the grading expert to catch.

In some instances, the experts fail to have their coffee, on account of running late, or being really busy on that morning, and they still assign a cleaned grade to your perfectly innocent uncleaned coin : ) 

I hope my comments doesn't open the door to a holy war, however, it's a forum, and all civil discussions are welcome : ) 

9 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Volt, did you get the book ?  It's available from Heritage Auctions (NOT Amazon).

I think you are talking about David Tripp's book ILLEGAL TENDER.  I haven't read his book or Allyson Frankel's DOUBLE EAGLE (Roger says her book is better).  I probably should read both because I find the story of the 1933's fascinating, but it will be difficult for me to read Tripp's book because the guy testified for the government/U.S. Mint and helped them steal back the Switt-Langbord 1933's.  I'm not sold on him as an equal to Roger as a researcher; I think he was a better storyteller.  He worked for Sotheby's and they had a financial and reputational interest in NOT having any other 1933's hit the market.  I just got a copy of their 2003 auction pamphlet marketing the 1933 Farouk Saint, it's slick but that's it.  Sotheby's could care less about the coin business or hobby, so they basically made their $$$ selling the Farouk coin and then their lead guy helped prevent the rest from competing.

Yes, I found it through Heritage. Didn't get a chance to pick up one yet. I've another one of Roger's books, a Guide to Peace Dollars. The best out there for peace dollars. I use it quite often and I even have multiple editions. Tough ones, peace dollars, in comparison to the quality of Morgans. 

Oh I was talking about Farouk's Saint. I think the US government tried to retrieve it from the Egyptian Gov at some point, after the King's overthrow in the revolution. I read about Sotheby's auction of the coin. Sotheby's is a mammoth of an auction house but true, they couldn't care less about coins. They're pure business. 

I heard Illegal tender is a fascinating read, but I personally have no opinion or information about both book and author. It's mentioned as an interesting book by many established writers in Numismatics. 

To summarize, this coin is brilliant, with a rich history and a fascinating background. I am certain a lot of facts or stories about it still remain hidden.

7 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's tough to use the current period because instead of the current economic crisis driving up the price of gold, gold coin production has ceased or been interrupted and this has resulted in a gold selling at a premium (silver too).

I do believe you can see auction sites selling modern gold coins (bullion) at reasonable premiums to spot gold.  Heck, I saw 1 oz. .9999 fine gold coins not getting bids at $1,800 an ounce (PF70 and DCAM, too !)

Don't forget, slabbed and graded coins will go for more usually and ditto proofs.

True. They're available now via online dealers like APMEX & JMbullion for the prices I mentioned previously. The reasonable premium. Everything was out of stock for a while but now they're in stock. PF & DCAM included, with a price difference ranging in tens of dollars from the regulars. 

I searched for the book. You chose the most interesting coin, the Saint-Gaudens double eagle. I recall one that was quite notorious. Smuggled, vanished and all sort of magic. It was in King Farouk's collection. His Majesty collected everything : ) 

Whenever I read a book about Numismatics, I am left astonished, as to how the writer managed to research, dig up and organize all the information. In addition to adding your own take on the subject. A most impressive feat, Congratulations. 

17 hours ago, RWB said:

The color adjusted Morgan was just an attempt based on assuming the white highlights were neutral gray and allowing the others to fall in place.

See, this is why you're important. For me, this part is Alien Technology : )

Quote

As for the slab distortion - it was a good learning experience. Being a "really important person in Numismatics".... naw, I just bumble along as best I can. Knowledgeable and interested collectors, such as the OP, are the truly important persons.

It's very tricky. A coin can have multiple faces, and the holder complicates matters. I shall add my comment about the book in the thread where it belongs. 

Why not Corona Epidemic Edition? or COVID-19? Whatever sounds cooler. 

Emergency production to satisfy the hunger for silver : )

1 hour ago, kbbpll said:

This is where I always feel like a dolt. I never see these "bullion gold coins" selling anywhere near actual gold price when they come out. Like, right now US Mint is selling 1 oz Buffaloes ($2415) and AE's ($2375), and gold is at $1712. 40% above gold price. Why not just buy gold if you're speculating? "Numismatic value" is such a crapshoot - I mean you can go back 120-140 years to some of the $10 gold in low MS and they're still not worth 40% over gold price. Moderns are pretty and cool and all that, but the "investing" side I just don't get.

Haha the US Mint is a fraud. You can get an American Eagle: $1,866 / Buffalo: $1,845.74. So $129-150 above current gold price ($1,716).

Anyway, It's why I said, Bullion Gold Coins are a nice way, rather than the best way, you must obtain them with a reasonable premium. 

The best way is the direct way, via something like BullionVault, or similar companies. You buy your Gold online, and it's all good and secure.

No need to dig up your garden and hide the coins, bars and stuff like that. Only for us to hear about how a dog found the stash a hundred years later while playing in the garden. Wasn't this the way things were done in the good old days? Where do they hide now them, banks eh : )

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

By collectibles, if you mean Art and Movie Memorabilia and Comics, agreed.  Even Art tends to go down when the stock market goes down.

I like coins, even those with a (reasonable) premium to gold, if you think gold is going to go up substantially.  What I think will happen is that people will learn about numismatic coins once they are drawn into gold because of a rising price.  That's what happened to me.  I didn't know about Saint-Gaudens gold coins until my 40's.

I completely agree. Bullion Gold Coins are a nice way for investors. Gold Classics require some degree of knowledge because of how they double as Collectibles. 

Modern coins & bars are always a good fast way to invest with style and fun, which is why they were sold out. 

People have time now, so why not learn about Numismatics, pick up a new hobby, Mr. Mark agrees : ) .. If the Investor is bored, and wants to learn about something new then Gold Classics are perfect, and it can be investing & collecting!

11 hours ago, rrantique said:

 

Thanks for the kind words Voltyris. I think the old saying "Buy the coin and not the holder" still rings true today. I do like the old ANACS holders and have several. PL/DMPL coins do seem a little tougher to capture color and or black and white backgrounds/mirrors.

I share the same sentiments. I like the old ANACS holder very much, and I also own a lot of them (due to the interesting coins inside). The new holders, not very much. I also like a lot of toned coins in the Morgan series that happen to be in old ANACS holders.

Yes, of course, very tough to photograph due to the mirror fields.

You seem to own several PL/DMPL Morgans, is this your niche within the series, or part of a larger Morgan Dollars collection? 

9 hours ago, kbbpll said:

I don't take it too seriously. I get the same from a real estate newsletter every month (as well as emails). It's a great time to buy (real estate, coins), it's a great time to sell, it's a great time to buy or sell. People who make money off of churn, whether it's stocks, property, gold, or coins, will always hype it up regardless of which direction it's heading.

I think you summarized it in a very straightforward manner, without divulging into Economic discussions : )

12 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Goldman Sachs is more likely to bid on MORGAN STANLEY than Morgan Dollars.  

He's on more solid footing when he says that holding a small % in gold makes sense.  I agree, Treasury bills and bonds are the go-to during times of turbulence.  But I would not be surprised to see gold have a great couple of weeks or months and making a sprint to $3,000 or even higher.

Or it could flop back to $1,100 an ounce.  

At least bullion you know what it will be worth in the future if you're buying it at that price without much of a premium.

Hahah yes, good one! How did I miss Morgan Stanley though? It should've been Morgan Stanley bidding on Morgans : ) 

I expect Gold to go lower or at least hold at the current levels for some time. 

Bullion yes, Gold ETFs, a lot of things to buy if you want precious metals, but collectibles? A bit far reach.

@RWB

I take the previous comment back. It's based on my recent findings, that you turned out to be a really important person in Numismatics : )

If you want that Morgan to look as you posted it, consider it done, we will buy it and confirm!

7 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If anything, the forward returns on stocks and bonds (well, stocks anyway) are HIGHER and BETTER after the events of the last 2 months.  Hell, they were best on March 23rd at S&P 2,200. 

I respect Mark's opinions on grading and coins, but when he tries to make an investment case for coins and collectibles based on stock market volatility, let me off the train.  He'd be on more solid footing predicting a rise in gold to $3,000/oz dragging up coins than an investment case based on volatility of other assets that pay income and dividends.

Reading RWB's book on Saints with extensive price history from 1976-2015, plus my own research over the years, confirms that even if the long-term and rolling period (more important !) returns on coins/collectibles were positive and/or closer to stocks or a diversified portfolio of financial assets....the positive returns are so concentrated in a few years of gains that the inevitable market-timing means most people will not only lose but lose big.

 

 

 

I completely agree. However, the $3,000/oz prediction would mean he is on cloud nine rather than solid footing. It won't happen anytime soon. Most countries/economies are re-opening, and when they all get back to normalcy, all the money is flying back to where it belongs, where assets show what one defines as a "return". 

His prediction of investment money flowing into Collectibles is quite funny. His analysis makes sense, only for him, because he is in Collectibles, and stands to benefit from such a dreamy scenario. Any analyst doing stocks would have a real laugh at what he is saying. 

I'll have to watch out for Goldman Sachs bidding on Morgans. That will really hurt my chances. 

Also, for all the ones advising people to buy Gold. If you wanted Gold, you should've bought it pre-disaster, and definitely not as Collectible Coins.

Gold is not a safe haven, Gold is a temporarily haven. It all flows back to Stocks, Funds, Etc.. when the disaster is over. 

---------------------------------

"Which continue to become increasingly liquid and fungible as a result of third-party certification"

That's what we call confirmation bias : )

The record breaking auctions mentioned is a warm up, to build anticipation. 

15 hours ago, kbbpll said:

https://www.ngccoin.com/census/united-states/dimes/32/

Looks like they designated PL for Roosevelt dimes in many years and mints, up to 2019-D. I didn't realize it either.

Interesting information. Thank you for pointing it out. One must do more research before one opens his mouth : ) .. Well, we must find out what it is all about. 

It's interesting that NGC only graded one as a MS-70, a 2005 release. A bit shocking. In the very first year, 1946, NGC has one as a MS-69. Roosevelt Dimes (1946-Now).

Pulled one over from eBay. Never came across FT (Finest Grade) on a holder before, so this is new as well. 

10 hours ago, RWB said:

RE: Plastic holder distortions.

While researching Saint-Gaudens Eagles for a book (similar to the Double Eagle book) I came across a slab photo of a perfect D/S mintmark - this thing was clear and both letters looked equal in strength. Only found the one coin photo. More digging turned up the same holder and coin -- but the mintmark was a normal "D." What happened?

I then checked other coin photos made through slabs from the same authenticator and in a similar accession range. I found more....not doubled mintmarks but distorted letters or features covering very small areas. The distortions were clear with one lighting angle and invisible from another.

My "find" was merely an optical illusion. 

Interesting story, thanks for sharing it.

Your investigative skills must have been offended, right : ) 

12 hours ago, Jade Collection said:

When I see a true view I like to ask the seller to show me a slab shot because the true view a lot of the time makes a coin look much better than it truly is

Exactly, I agree. Its not advised to make a purchase based on the TrueView alone. Seeing the coin in its holder is a must in my opinion. 

Quote

I give props to PCGS here for taking great photos. I can't see anything that suggests targeted retouching or editing of the photo. It just looks like favorable lighting.

I try my best to get good lighting for photos on my 10G and '32 set. I take pride in the presentation of those sets as I'm sure the people paying for these photos want to take pride in theirs. I don't think there's a problem here.

I think I actually do "worse" with my Zimbabwe set because I'll pull those into photoshop to straighten the note in the image and adjust the white balance to try to get the colors right, even through the holder. Some generations of PMG holders tend to cause photos of the notes to blue shift pretty bad.

Thank you for weighing in with your opinion. I agree with the favorable lighting part. Whether that's the thing to do or not, is up to debate. 

I know this seller on eBay, he takes great photos, every coin comes out as PL/DMPL. Really super photography. 

Zimbabwe ha? I bet all these zeros are quite attractive : )

5 hours ago, rrantique said:

Here is one with color.

I bet you really paid for that one ha : ) .. Brilliant, hopefully you can get some High quality pictures for it one day. Perhaps during a resubmit!

Well, its good you own one from ANACS. What's your opinion on ANACS coins with PL/DMPL or Cameo PL? The market seems to pay less for them, at least from what I've seen over several occasions. 

Thanks a lot for sharing!

Oh the thread has developed quite rapidly since my last visit : ) .. Fantastic coins, thank you for sharing Gents!

2 hours ago, Just Bob said:

There are modern coins that have received the "prooflike" designation:

(not my coin)

 

Well Well, one did not know that. Thank you for sharing! 

Is this a rare occurrence, or in huge numbers like the Morgans?

I am not ranting or raving. With all due respect to your opinion, its your opinion, and it's entirely against the idea of a TPG company, and against what they should be.

A beautiful coin is a beautiful coin, and it'll show itself in a superior photography setup. 

The whole idea of Money & Business can still be achieved with being a third party, non-biased, and with ethics. 

I never did try that, screaming to the heavens, wouldn't you think this is dangerous to my throat, after all, the heavens all the way up there, and I am down here : )

Enjoy your day.