zadok

...all u say is viable in the discussion, my main query is whether the owner of lets say a set of saints is representative of the hobby or is he an outlier n skews the metrics...im sure there r many true collectors that only collect one area or denomination of the hobby, large cent collectors come to mind, im just not convinced that most of the saint registry set owners r real collectors or just owners, its not important to the hobby overall just an inquiry...saint collecting is definitely diff than collecting say short foreign bullion sets where the entire set can be assembled in a matter of days n usually in mint state due to the non-circulating of the coins involved, again not important to the overall hobby...my experience is that true collectors collect more than just one area of any hobby....

...weak....

...struggling for relevance n trying find something new to say, sad lonely road to travel especially when ill equipped....

...sad n gets sadder by the day...classic text book...just sad....

...not totally relevant to ur comment but came into my mind while reading it...knowing ur obsession with saints n my thinking that saints r not coins that r aggressively collected, however the number of registry sets do not support my premise...one thing u mite want to consider, r the owners of those sets really numismatical collectors? do they have other collections of coins or r they "one trick ponies" like another member here on the forum that collects only 14 coins?...r they collectors that have big bucks n just want to dabble in the coin collecting world n saints seem to fit what they think a coin collection should look like?...would those same collectors collect 3 cent silver pcs?...i have a couple of friends that collect rare cars n rare bourbons n scotchs n they collect only mexican gold 50 pesos just because they like the size of the coins n like to call themselves coin collectors...just a thought that crossed my mind n i know u like to use the term "serious collectors"...r these registry set saint collectors "serious collectors" or "one trick pony" collectors?...i doubt we will ever know but the question is interesting to me....

...one person's historical is another's ho hum...the only thing the letter documents is the smoke that is being blown u know where...if produced as indicated then the coin's chronology is established n the only thing "special" about these particular coins is that they received "special" handling, much the same as other "branch mint proofs" n "specimen" coins...these coins n other such coins produced at all of the mints with or without "historical" accompanying letters would be more accurately described as "presentation" pieces....

...now u r going to have to define "mint frost"...but nicely done....

...hate to see the cert slabs for those babies...but as least fedex cant lose them....

...trust me he doesnt have a point just, just opinions....

...subjective opinion not shared by many, arbitrarily determined by committee of 1...proponent should first get a generally accepted definition of what is considered Uncirculated before unilaterally foisting it upon others as being ordained...but follows his normal pattern of self assumption....

...dont get locked in on comparing SP to Proof, the subject is much broader than just that simple definition which only encompasses a narrow slice of coin production processes n intent...its not like a one size fits all definition....

...prob true, but also prob not a great number of serious collectors for these as well, but interesting....

...agree, the error itself is relatively common with n with out the finned strip n does not command a big premium, the fact that it escaped notice as a proof adds more interest n collectability....

...same reason diamond graders have real diamonds in their master sets...u dont have to have every date n mint to have a grading set....

...63....

...u will note in his design submissions he produced two separate designs for the 1/2 pence n the committee chose the pig design, n yes the committee did request that he alter his designs slightly...it was interesting that the committee evaluated the designs for each denomination individually in a blind test n that metcalf's designs were chosen in all 8 cases, the overall series designs were not chosen as a set but it ironically it turned out that way...i have copies of all of the designs from all 7 artists n its interesting to compare them the same way that the committee evaluated them....

...no one ever insinuated those pcs were commissioned or produced by anyone other than the originator, there r just some persons who feel they must have the last say on everything even if they know nothing of what they r speaking of, but guess it goes with the forum territory...one just has to consider the source n dismiss it for what it is...in this case ur point is well taken, patterns could n r produced by many different sources n do not need be from any gov't agency...european auctions r replete with many such items, i personally would not refer to them as medals or tokens for several different reasons...models n patterns could be used interchangeably but i think they r usually associated as being made of different materials but that too is subjective...ur suggestion of design pattern fits accurately...many of the worlds n quasi-official expositions n fairs have non-gov't authorized numismatic items n many of those have known patterns that were struck....

...once again just one persons position not substantiated by anything official by any recognized source...more of the I, Me, Mine garbage we see here all the time...

...duh...no one said it was, the discussion already established that...but it is not a token, all patterns r not issued by gov'ts or did u decide to just make that up...u should stick with US dumpster documents n not try speaking for the Ireland mint, im pretty sure u have not been anointed spokesperson for them...

...the ones i purchased were thru a third party from his widow, i did know a couple of dealers who had a few patterns that they had purchased...as to whether he personally distributed any i can not say...i do have the names of the dealers that had the patterns for sale but am not certain who was the source for those pcs....

...let me get this straight...u went all the way to berlin n bought an australian coin struck in the united states?...thats determination, was it a philly striking?....

...morbiducci patterns do show up from time to time n the prices have escalated 10 fold over the past 50+ years since i purchased my own...i do believe u r correct in that morbiducci had a few patterns struck privately, the original model submissions were not presented as actual coins but as designs...interestingly, there were a total of 66 models submitted by 7 different artists, other than the designs the only patterns i have seen were those created by morbiducci....

...so sad....

...diminishing returns, from both ends of the stick...the cost to implement n program will far outweigh the return, the people that it replaces wont be there to oversee the net results n then the lower end collector or speculator that looks for these minor varieties to generate marginal returns will quit looking because its already been done...cherry picking will be over, theres no picking if there r no cherries...i can see the return of the local un-cataloged estate sale being the high point for the collector, un-certified coins will be the looked-for items...profits/sales may be the driving force but just mite drive the numismatic vehicle off the cliff...this approach is very similar to the big chain stores implementing the self-checkout lanes, results...loss of margins, loss of customers, loss of service, loss of employees n now major backtracking....

...i guess what comes to mind is...do we even need or want that degree of differentiation for coins?...variety collectors r a miniscule segment of the collector base, i am one n i dont feel that i need it nor want it...after all AI is only operational as long as there is a grid for it to exist on...