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JTO

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Journal Entries posted by JTO

  1. JTO
    I found the 1916 in FH I had been waiting for.
    After a long wait I found a full head 1916 Liberty Standing Quarter with original surfaces and a great strike. What do you all think? The 1916 FH is always much softer than the 1917 FH. In my opinion the 1916 is not really a "type one" to be grouped with the 1917's. It has a completely different master hub. Look at the stars on the gateway or the letters on the obverse and on "United States of America" on the reverse. The stars have a softer edge on the 16 and the letters of the both the obverse and reverse are more rounded on the 1916 compared to the 1917.

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  2. JTO
    My original thesis was that Marquis coins get preferential treatment but I could not leave well enough alone...
    I am glad that we got the discussion that we got. 21 people felt it worth their time to write a response and over 200 views. The original Title was "Marquis coins get a pass from PCGS" Then I changed it to "Is this fair grading? See the grade PCGS gave and guess who submitted it."
    The point made by Mark on his posting was a good one. It did not escape my attention that the holder was an middle generation PCGS holder. It is NOT a BLUE (recent label) nor GREEN (OLD) but blackk print on a white background with the bar code. This dates the slab to the 2004 to 2008 time frame. The consequence of that as pointed out bluntly pointed out by Kaiser14 is that Stacks could not have submitted the coin for grading.
    But to Kaiser14 don't through the baby out with the bath water. The title was what would you grade this coin. The primary thesis if you will was that Marquis coins seem to get the benefit of the doubt in the grading process. Another way to look at the same thing is that both PCGS and NGC and ANACS and PCI want Marquis coins in their holders. Duh...
    I made a side comment about the auction house and in fairness probably should've saved that for a separate post. But here we are. Remembering back to my first Heritage auction experience in Santa Clara in 1998 my experience has been that coins graded by auction houses tend to get the benefit of the doubt. No I'm not talking about a conspiracy. Coins fairly graded AU55 are not being put in MS65 holders.
    But for Kaiser14, I will present the second half of my thesis more clearly and as an opinion. When I send in a coin like this its returned details grade CORROSION. When an organization that measures its revenue stream in 100s of millions of dollars submits the same coin it is viewed as Fine 15 with a granular surface. For them scratch or even gouge become contact marks. You get the picture. My opinion only!
    I am not opining that there is a great conspiracy but rather this is simple economics. Sure the grading is blinded. But when a coin is number 140 of 750 it's not too hard to figure out that you're dealing with a major player and not a small time collector or even dealer. Simple economics. Kaiser14 is America and for better or worse the hobby that we love is based on a thesis of Capitalism. And just to throw more fecal matter in the air the same coin graded at 11 AM on a Monday may get a different level of scrutiny than a coin that finishes the process at 4:59 PM on Friday, its just life.
    Thanks for the great discussion
     
    John

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  3. JTO
    ridiculous variations in grading standards depending on the coin and who submitted it.
    PCGS is like a politician, you get the grade you pay for. I first recognize that something was not kosher about 6 years ago when I bid on and won a 1934--S Peace Dollar in a PCGS AU-58 holder from Heritage. The photographs were washed out and that when I got the coin in hand... WOW talk about ugly. At best, the coin should have graded XF-45.
    I concluded; Marquis coins submitted by auction houses get upgraded and put in holders that regular coins submitted by regular people would never dream of getting. But was told: ...Oh no the grading is completely anonymous and above Board... This coin is in the Stacks auction and as a chain cent would qualify as Marquis coin. If I submitted this coin it would come back with details grading, corroded. How can you explain this coin getting a pass on the corrosion and being slabbed in a regular PCGS Holder? The reverse is worse. Look at the coin and then at the holder, can you honestly tell me that coin belongs in that holder?

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  4. JTO
    I have always had my eye on reaching 1 million points but never really thought I would get there.
    I have a strong predilection for New Orleans coinage. So it seems fitting that the coin the put me over 1 million point mark was a New Orleans issue. I have been looking for this coin in and circulated condition for the past 8-10 years. After careful analysis of auction records there are probably less than 20 truly Mint State examples in the market. Many have come to the auction block multiple times; they have had hammer prices for MS-62 examples range from $4500 to > $10, 000.
    The 1838--O half dime was, potentially, the very first circulating coin to be produced by the new Branch Mint in New Orleans. For whatever reason, it appears that unlike many other first issue coins, this one was not saved or set aside. This may be because concurrently there was the 1838--O dime. It had both a larger mintage as well as being the larger coin. Because the designs are essentially identical it might of made sense to save the dime and not worry about saving any examples of the half dime.
    Regardless of the reason the 1838-O half dime is rare in any grade but particularly uncommon in Mint State condition. I've lost this coin at auction more times and I care to remember, has the bidding rose above my comfort zone. This time I put in my bid on Heritage Live and walked away for the computer. When I could wait no longer I found that not only had I won the coin but for the reserve, that was less that the last time it changed hands. I have added it to my custom New Orleans issue type set. And, by adding it to my feeble half dime set it bumped my overall point total over the 1 Mil mark.
    As a self-admitted coin nerd I know that this must seem pretty sad that something like this would register and an actual milestone for me. But there you have it in all my nerd glory and what a coin!

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  5. JTO
    What a time the THREE GSA employees had going through and classifying all of those CC dollars.
    First, I love the "Soft Packs" because they remind me of my youth when I collected the 1971-73 40% silver soft packs. The 40% Ikes were like a time warp back to the days when you could collect actual Silver, Silver dollars. I must have close to fifty of the various blue packs now. Yes that may cross the line from collecting and move in to hoarding. But many of the soft packs I have come by when buying a complete collection intact and then I just kept the soft packs.
    For the CC soft packs, the person (one of only three people) responsible for sorting all the GSA... Government Services Administration... looked at this coin and saw something that made her or him think that the coin had circulated. Frequently the characteristic that tipped the sorter's opinion of the coins grade or condition to the Circulated soft pack and not in the Un-Circulated, Black Hard Pack was toning. The toning came from the canvas bags, the vault environment or the coins 100 years of conditions that the coins were in prior to the big GSA distribution.
    In those days (the 60's and early 70's) the top grade was BU ... brilliant un-circulated and any toning was by definition not brilliant. Many coins fell prey to us collectors trying to make beautiful naturally toned coins brilliant. Alas, this coin escaped with just a sneer as to its grade but no damage from someone like me attempting to make it Brilliant.
    Not an expensive coin, not a rare coin but for me a fun coin. And after all isn't that what our Hobby is about?
     
    John

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  6. JTO

    A rare coin

    By JTO,

    Number 1 of my top 10 rare coins... in no particular order.
    I have previously posted about how freely the word RARE is used about particular coins when they come to auction. To me if there are 20 examples of a particular (rare) coin in a single auction it really begs the question: How do they define rare? One of the most glaring examples of this is also a coin many of us dreamed of owning as a kid and a few of us were lucky enough to find in pocket change: The 1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent.
    The 1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent is frequently, I mean really frequently, offered at auction with the catalog author waxing on about how the coin is a lustrous example of the key date of the Lincoln series. This drives me crazy. On the platinum night there may be 4 examples in MS-65 Red or better. Then in the live auction there are between 10 and 20 grading from AU-55 up to MS-65 and in the subsequent automated auction there will be another 8-15 graded from Good up to a plethora of problem coins. Its not necessary to single out the 1909-S VDB for all this abuse, as the 1877 Indian Cent fit the same profile almost identically, with the exception that the grades for each auction are slightly lower. These are not rare coins they are simply expensive coins. If you have enough money you need not wait longer than the next auction at your disposal.
    So with all that negative commentary what do I suggest IS a rare coin? First, a disclaimer: as a fan of the New Orleans Mint, and since that is a focus of my collecting, I may be over emphasizing coins from New Orleans. But, that said, however about 1838-O no stars half-dime. Although there appear to be as many as 150 that have made it problem free into slabs, when you take into account all of the re-submissions, the actual number of coins is probably closer to 80 problem free, gradable examples.
    I literally spent years waiting for an affordable and problem free example to come to market. I would regularly check Heritage, Collectors Corner and occasionally even eBay. Sure I could have gone to Legend Numismatics for the single MS-66 example but it is priced that well over 60,000 dollars. When the pictured example showed up on the Internet I tracked it back to the Liberty Coin website and snatched it up for ~$1000 dollars below recent auction archive results.
    This coin, because of its rarity, poses a number of challenges both for the dealer and collector. If you walk up to a dealers table and (as I attempted once) grandiosely open your offer with I am willing to pay full Red Book, i.e. retail value, you will likely be treated to a round of laughter and told you should go by the coin from the Red Book. The problem is, that the coin comes to auction or sale so infrequently that it is difficult to track its actual value. I was fortunate that the folks at Liberty Coin did not go to the Heritage website to do an auction archive search on the coin. Because I had been searching for an 1838-O no stars Half--Dime I was up to date on the auction results and lucked out on the price.
    Sorry for the rambling post. I was just trying to share a bit of my perspective and passion.
     
    Thank you for reading,
    John

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  7. JTO

    An Actual Rare Coin

    By JTO,

    So many coins when offered at auction (especially daily coins) are touted as being Rare... Scarce... Low Mintage and the verbiage goes on. Most of these are not even close to being rare.
    I have given thought to writing in article about my top 10 rare United States coins. I'm not talking about this 1792 half disme, or the 1796 no stars $2-1/2 gold piece, these coins are ones that I will never be able to afford.
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  8. JTO
    I just got the coin and noticed the doubling on STATES OF AMERICA.
    This looks like strike doubling to me. Primarily due to the linear direction of the doubling rather than rotational. The doubling is toward the 12 o'clock position rather than to the left of each letter. What do you all think?

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  9. JTO
    1934-S S$1 in MS-65 or should it be 64.
    I must admit that the coin might have graded a 64 if it were a Philadelphia issue. I think that the key or semi key dates get a slight "benefit of the doubt" so that the grading services can keep them their holders. This, i my opinion is more common with the Heritage-PCGS connection but I could be wrong... what do you all think?

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  10. JTO
    The 1839-O half-dollar was the first minted in New Orleans and not Philadelphia!
    How could I forget the first New Orleans half-dollar. This has always been a favorite of mine. Although many reference books describe the first New Orleans half-dollar as being one of the few 1838 proof issues, current research suggests most if not all, most likely all, were minted in Philadelphia. This has to do with the dye characteristics and the proof quality. As for the re-punched mint mark it turns out this is the more common of the varieties and as such carries no premium. The single punched mint mark is less common but I don't think it commands a premium. This coin is also a hard to track down, regardless of RPM or not, as most have found homes with collectors such as me to appreciate them greatly for what they are. This coin is just another fascinating, in my opinion, addition to the New Orleans type story. If my posts are excessive please leave comments and I will tone them down.
     
     
     
    John

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  11. JTO
    Added the last of the New Orleans issues to complete the type set.
    Finally, I finished my New Orleans type set. Although the registry has a Carson City--one per denomination, a type set, the New Orleans Mint has not been deemed worthy of such a designation. Nevertheless, after completing the Carson City set, I slowly, over several years, worked to complete a New Orleans type set. The Double Eagle was difficult only based on price, the $3 was not bad and the halftime, no stars, was actually quite challenging to find an acceptable grade. The clear stopper was the 1909-O $5 Indian. This was both difficult from the perspective of finding a nice quality piece and keeping it under 5 figures. While I finally found a $5 Indian that I could live with and be happy with without taking out a mortgage. I can't afford to just pay a dealer to go out and buy me a complete mint state set, nor would I want to. That would take the fun out of the hunt. Having completed this set I can say with confidence that the 2 most difficult coins are the no stars halftime, which is totally under rated and the 5 Dollar Indian which usually comes with quite a bit of fanfare. I hope you'll enjoy the photos of the coin as I hope I enjoy the coin, happy hunting.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    John

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  12. JTO

    Rare 1877 Indian Cent, Not

    By JTO,

    This coin is anything but rare, just check out any major auction.
    This coin was brought from Rick Snow. It got the PS designation but only, in my opinion, because of the date. This coin is poorly struck on the its right side, including the date and AMERICA on the obverse and the bow and arrows on the reverse. The fact that I bought it means the only person I really have to complain about is myself. I chose the coin. With that said I am a bit tired of hearing that this is the toughest issue of the Indian series to obtain. This date is anything but rare. Because of the value, er price, even in low grades, every auction has multitudes of 1877s. The only difficulty in obtaining a nice one is the depth of your bank account.
     
     
     
     
     
    Compare this to the 1859 1c proof cameo Indian that I waited years to find a nice example with true cameo contrast. The 1859 is a rare coin. The 1877 is a pedestrian coin that costs and arm and leg.

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  13. JTO
    Here for modern coins that, I think, have investment potential. Shhh don't tell though.
    This is a continuation of the thread that was started about a week ago. We were talking about ordering mint sets and sending in a handful of coins to try to get a few top population for grade. If you order 10 mint sets (~$30 per set with shipping) that's $300. If you submit 2 coins from each set that will add on an additional $15 per coin minimum, that adds an additional $300. So we are up to $600.
    For just a little bit more you could by a mint state First Spouse gold coin. I think these are the real sleepers of the modern commemorative series. Consider that several so far have had mintage numbers under 2000!!! Not 2 billion, 200 million, 2 million but 2 thousand. The grey sheet on the MS L. Garfield first spouse is 1425 bid, 1525 ask. For VanBuren's Liberty its roughly $1100 mint state or proof.
    Time will tell...
    JTO

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  14. JTO

    just another problem coin

    By JTO,

    When does is a coin go from having where to having a "scratch"?
    This poor excuse for a coin has been given the scarlet letter of numismatics, the details grade with the NGC purple insert. Exactly when the coin goes from having where to being "scratched" it is not clear to me. I brought this coin because its dreaded defect is essentially unnoticeable in hand. What do you think?

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  15. JTO
    Which coin would you pick?
    I paid a bit of a premium price for this coin that, unfortunately, happened to be in a PCGS holder with a CAC sticker. These slabs attract the wrong kind of bidder... the investor. (I am of course joking, kind of). After writing about, "Problem Coins", the thread went to the question of what a person is buying: the coin or the slab? I think when it comes to these better type coins or rare date coins, IN GENERAL, you get more coin for your money for a coin in a NGC slab. It seems to me that the investors like the PCGS coins especially if they are CAC sticker-ed. I bought this one because of the nice creamy original look. There was an NGC 1874 Arrows 50c in a 64 holder for less. In this case the 64 coin may have had slightly better surfaces (technical grading) but it was blotchy and had dirt in the recesses. I bought the coin I liked better and am happy with it, I just wonder what the prices would have been if the coins were in opposite holders. Maybe I am too cynical and the other bidders were all bidding just on the looks of the coin like me. I will never know. Which coin would you pick? (the left is the 63 and the one on the right is the 64)

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  16. JTO

    Problem Coins II Continued

    By JTO,

    Here is a my problem VF Details (3043 pt) next to a current auction Problem Free Pr-1(4416) pick one
    Sorry for the formatting flaw and typos in the last message. Here I think a (or 4) pictures are worth a thousand words.

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  17. JTO

    Problem Coins Part II

    By JTO,

    Checkout the scores for the 1793 Half Cent
    If the 1796 quarter posed a quandary the 1793 Half Cent is downright insane. Here are the scores for a 1793 Half Cent.
    Pr G VG F VF 40 45 50 58
    4416 5651 5771 5965 6089 6215 6343 6473 6874
    The coin pictured below garners a whopping 3045 points. That's over 1000 points less than the coin that has been rubs so smooth that you can only tell what it is by the faintest of attributes. Also the difference between the coin in Good-6 and a coin that he is About Uncirculated is only 13%. A couple of the commentators on my previous post I think some that up nicely.
    1) it is the investors that are driving this insanity
    2) be careful what you wish for as you just might get it
    As long as this sort of nonsense continues we collectors of early rare American coins will benefit. As the investors bid up the Poor problems free coins we will be able to scoop up those miscreant coins at a substantial discount. So really maybe we (the true collectors who are not related to Bill Gates) are better off with the scoring system and the way it is because we can afford to purchase coins with nice details that either have a significant issue or were simply submitted by the wrong person (I see this much more commonly with PCGS than NGC)
    Thank you for all your comments.
    By the way the coin pictured I purchased raw from, of all places, Coast Coast coins for a little over $3000 and it graded VF Detail and as I said gave me 3045 points in my type set.

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  18. JTO

    Problem Coins

    By JTO,

    Is problem finely detailed rare coin better than a no detail Problem free coin?
    A one year type quarter. So She has the mumps and graffiti which are nicely described as "Counter Stamped". Why not American Chop marks? I think that the "problem free" coins at some point will not be the be-all-and-end-all of collecting. In this case the coin pictured was in an auction with another that was problem free but with "About Good" grade (rubbed smooth) and sold for thousands more. I lost this coin in the Long Beach show a couple of years ago and now the price was less (because it is not a problem free coin). With only a a couple hundred of these one year coins in existence I would rather have a problem coin with fine "details" rather than a problem free coin with no "details". I could be all wrong...

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  19. JTO

    Points and type sets

    By JTO,

    Is a 1909-S VDB red equal to a 1958-D?
    Sometimes I don't understand the scoring system. At first look it is almost a dollar per point system or maybe it is based on rarity? But by what standard, mintage bears little to no resemblance to population (severely overestimates in an un-equal distribution) or the population reports (which over estimate due to re-submissions). The score seem vaguely reasonable but I have a pet peeve. In the type set it seems you should get more points for say.... a 1909-S VDB as your wheat cent than a 1958-D. so I went the route of a matte proof. 24 points for a 1909-S VDB MS 63 RD was tough to look at. Just one guys perspective...

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  20. JTO

    New Orleans part 2

    By JTO,

    another great New Orleans coin
    here is the affordable New Orleans half dollar, mint mark obverse.

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  21. JTO

    What about New Orleans?

    By JTO,

    Carson City gets itself and denomination set shouldn't New Orleans? And maybe even San Francisco and Denver.
    I lived in New Orleans for 4 years in the early 80s. I grew to have an affection for the city below sea level. The New Orleans Mint Museum is one of the most un-pretentious and enjoyable museums that I have been to. New Orleans was the first "branch" Mint to coin non-gold coins. It began with a beautiful "no stars" dime. The 1838 New Orleans proof half dollar was likely minted in Philadelphia for at least some of the 8 specimens. Regardless I enjoyed collecting New Orleans mint issues and would love to see competitive sets to go with them. On a side note the New Orleans mint has never officially been removed as a US mint it is simply unfunded.

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  22. JTO
    This is truly an original original. There has been a great deal of study on the sequencing of these dollars. One of the relatively early revelations was that the name below base, which was always assumed to have preceded the name on base, actually was a re-strike. During the original striking in December 1836, the first coins were struck. Only those of the earliest group are free from diagnostic die cracks and clash marks. This coin is free of one of two of the earliest die state changes. The first is a die chip in the denticles peripheral to the second A in America on the reverse. The second is a die clash that extends upward and outward from the eagle's right wing. See June 2009 Numismatist Pg 55 by Dannreuther & Shalley. The upshot is that this is probably one of the first ~400 coins minted. The weight is 416 grains and is of .892 fine silver (January issues and restrikes are made with he new standard .9 fine silver with a weight of 412 grains.) NGC declines to opine as to Original versus Restrike stating there is not enough data to make that determination. After the research leading up and the review of the Dr. Korein collection there is ample data to make these determinations and both PCGS and ANACS do!. I am not a fan of PCGS but here they have NGC beat. The coins here is in remarkably good condition, given that they were released into the hands officials and citizens.


  23. JTO
    Improperly Cleaned or Improperly Graded
    Some of my most beautiful coins are Improperly Cleaned (problem coins). If you look at my (JTO) 1792-1964 type set and view the pictures of the 1793 wreath large cent and the Capped Bust Half Dollar I think you will see what I mean. I think, in some respects we, as collectors, have lost our way. The grading services have hijacked our hobby. Numismatics is a form of art albeit within historical contexts. With the registry system "collectors" seem to prefer an ugly MS-61 over a beautiful AU-58.
    Your posting raised an important question based on the subjective nature of the grading process. The real question is not how we should educate ourselves on identifying the possibility of a gentle cleaning occurring over 100 years ago (one that leaves no hairlines, does not disrupt the luster or SIGNIFICANTLY alter the coin's appearance); the question is how do we get the major grading services to use a more reasonable set of standards.
    I have some of the same experiences with the grading services as you...
    1909-S Indian Cent ICG AU-58 Details corroded... I CLEANED with acetone and it became a 1909-S Indian Cent PCGS AU-58.
    An 1893 Isabella 25c NGC body bag "Altered Surfice" became PCGS MS-63
    I really enjoy the registry game and I wish there was more emphasis on the coins in the sets rather than just the holders the coins are in.
    John

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  24. JTO
    Another "Problem Coin"
    Here is another "problem coin". I think that the picture is worth a thousand details or adjectives. If I had an unlimited budget I would buy all mint state and ultra cameo coins. But if reality was not an issue I would just go back in time and get one from Mr Rittenhouse at the mint hot off the screw press. Since neither of these is going to happen I like my problem coins and have some fun wondering about just where they have been and what they have done to get in to such trouble?

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