Counterfeit hypothetical

[MikeInFL]

If counterfeiters were able to perfectly recreate a coin and their work was practically undetectable.

 

1) Would you want one in your own collection?

 

2) Would you care if your example of this coin was real or counterfeit?

 

3) How would you feel if you owned a real example of the coin now being counterfeited?

 

Just wondering...Mike

 

[edited to show the distinct questions being asked]

[Zoins]

By practically undetectable, do you mean having the word COPY on it? If so, some people do collect those reproductions.

[MikeInFL]

By practically undetectable, do you mean having the word COPY on it? If so, some people do collect those reproductions.

 

For this hypothetical, the word COPY does not appear on the coin, nor is its countefeit nature detectable in any way from normal inspection.

[Zoins]

Are the counterfeits good enough to get into top TPG slabs as the real thing?

 

Can you detect the counterfeit with diagnostics on the obverse or reverse? Or are the only diagnostics on the edge?

[MikeInFL]

Are the counterfeits good enough to get into top TPG slabs as the real thing?

 

Can you detect the counterfeit with diagnostics on the obverse or reverse? Or are the only diagnostics on the edge?

 

Yes, no, and no. Assume the only way to tell is destructive testing of the coin.

[jesbroken]

Mike, hypothetically how would you know, if someone told you it was counterfeit, yet the TPG's slabbed it, would you believe them. Unless you counterfeited the coin you could not know in your hypothetical example.

[Zoins]

Then sign me up for a 1964-D Peace Dollar

[MikeInFL]

Mike, hypothetically how would you know, if someone told you it was counterfeit, yet the TPG's slabbed it, would you believe them. Unless you counterfeited the coin you could not know in your hypothetical example.

 

That's kind of the point. You don't know if your coin is real or counterfeit.

[Zoins]

Unless you counterfeited the coin you could not know in your hypothetical example.

And once you put it into the market, unless it was tracked by a TPG cert number or marks on the coin, even the counterfeiter wouldn't be able to tell.

[MikeInFL]

Unless you counterfeited the coin you could not know in your hypothetical example.

And once you put it into the market, unless it was tracked by a TPG cert number or marks on the coin, even the counterfeiter wouldn't be able to tell.

 

That's right. There would be no way to tell short of destroying the coin if the coin you own was real or fake.... So:

 

1) Would you want one in your own collection?

 

2) Would you care if your example of this coin was real or counterfeit?

 

3) How would you feel if you owned a real example of the coin now being counterfeited?

 

[Zoins]

Is this really just a hypothetical?

 

As long as the counterfeiter wasn't stupid by flooding the market or informing a whistle blower, who would ever know. I'd actually be surprised if this isn't happening now, though I'd tend to believe it was Americans making the coins, not the Chinese.

[MikeInFL]

Is this really just a hypothetical?

 

Yes. I can say with absolute certainty that I own no undetectable countefeit coins.

 

Now please answer the three questions posed, if you don't mind....Mike

[Zoins]

How would you find out there are counterfeits out there?

• Does a counterfeiter tell you in confidence?
• Do you find a dead counterfeiter's lab and diary?
• Is it on the front page of Coin World and the New York Times?
• How many people besides you know about the counterfeits?

Also:

• How many counterfeits exist?
• Are they still being made?

I think these are legitimate questions to flesh out the hypothetical.

[MarkFeld]

If counterfeiters were able to perfectly recreate a coin and their work was practically undetectable, would you want one in your own collection?

 

Would you care if your example of this coin was real or counterfeit?

 

How would you feel if you owned a real example of the coin now being counterfeited?

 

Just wondering...Mike

Even (or especially) if the item were identical in appearance to a genuine one, I wouldn't want it for my collection. To me, the desirability of a coin (or other type of antique collectible) is not only about it's appearance, but also its history, including when, where, how, why and under what circumstances/conditions it was produced.

 

The fact that one might not be able to SEE the difference doesn't automatically make that difference less important to some of us. That is largely why collectors of antiques will pay significantly more for an original than a reproduction.

 

As the owner of an original, I would be bothered if quantities of (nearly) identical copies were produced. In part, that is because fraud would inevitably result.

[zrlevin]

I think that there is some symbolism going on here.

[MikeInFL]

How would you find out there are counterfeits out there?

• Does a counterfeiter tell you in confidence?
• Do you find a dead counterfeiter's lab and diary?
• Is it on the front page of Coin World and the New York Times?
• How many people besides you know about the counterfeits?

I think these are legitimate questions to flesh out the hypothetical.

 

For the hypothetical, assume that the counterfeiter came here and posted to the forum their deeds. The story was picked up by Coin World and was subsequently published in most major numismatic periodicals.

[Zoins]

I think that there is some symbolism going on here.

But will the counterfeits turn bad over time

[MikeInFL]

Also:

• How many counterfeits exist?
• Are they still being made?

I think these are legitimate questions to flesh out the hypothetical.

 

Assume that it is uknown how many exist, and they are still being made, and to the point made in the preceeding post, they will not go bad over time.

[Zoins]

I think anyone who paid a premium for rarity that no longer exists would be upset.

 

Rarity simply wouldn't be worth collecting anymore. Instead, people may shift their focus to collecting in a manner where rarity doesn't matter.

[MikeInFL]

I think anyone who paid a premium for rarity that no longer exists would be upset.

 

Rarity simply wouldn't be worth collecting anymore. Instead, people may shift their focus to collecting in a manner where rarity doesn't matter.

 

A fair perspective.

 

How about your answer to #1 and #2, given the answers to your questions above?

[Zoins]

God grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

the courage to change the things I can;

and the wisdom to know the difference.

It would be possible to track down these people and stop them from making more which I think should be down. However, for the existing versions out there, if there truly is no way to tell, I wouldn't let it bother me. Life's too short to get hung up on things you can't change and can't even verify. What if this person was lying

[MikeInFL]

Thank you Zoins. So your answers are:

 

1) Yes.

2) No.

3) Anyone who paid a premium for rarity that no longer exists would be upset.

 

Anybody else?

[Zoins]

Thank you Zoins. So your answers are:

 

1) Yes.

2) No.

3) Anyone who paid a premium for rarity that no longer exists would be upset.

Actually, your interpretation of my response for question 1 is incorrect.

 

Your question 1 is: "Would you want one in your own collection?"

 

I wouldn't necessarily want one. A better answer is that I would be indifferent which is your question 2.

[Zoins]

To put this hypothetical in perspective, I sort of view it as a version of The Thomas Crowne Affair movie which I've only seen the modern rendition of. At the end of the movie, Crowne steals a second painting and when the detective is asked whether he cares, he responds that playing games with paintings is a game for the rich, what he really cares about is helping average people who have lost loved ones (or something like that).

 

I've done volunteer high school teaching, interviewed high school students for my alma mater and participated in the Boy Scouts. All of those are much more important to me than worrying about alleged, unverified, undetectable counterfeit collector coins which may not really exist.

[MikeInFL]

Zoins,

 

Thanks for the clarification, so your amended answers are:

 

1) I wouldn't necessarily want one. I would be indifferent.

2) No.

3) Anyone who paid a premium for rarity that no longer exists would be upset.

 

Again, thanks for playing along. I appreciate it.

 

To put this hypothetical in perspective, I sort of view it as a version of The Thomas Crowne Affair movie which I've only seen the modern rendition of. At the end of the movie, Crowne steals a second painting and when the detective is asked whether he cares, he responds that playing games with paintings is a game for the rich, what he really cares about is helping average people who have lost loved ones (or something like that).

 

I've done volunteer high school teaching, interviewed high school students for my alma mater and participated in the Boy Scouts. All of those are much more important to me than worrying about alleged, unverified, undetectable counterfeit collector coins which may not really exist.

 

While I don't disagree with your perspective, I would add that this is not a high-school teaching, high school interview, or Boy Scout forum. This is a coin collecting forum, and my hypothetical was intended to get us to think about issues related to coin collecting. Judging by those who have chosen to answer and those who are conspicuously absent, I think it speaks volumes as to its pertinence, but will let others decide for themselves.

 

Take care...Mike

[Zoins]

Good luck with your experiment. I hope more people respond.

[TJ'S Coins]

I want legitimate coins in my collection.

 

The only way I would want a counterfeit coin would be for educational purposes never to pass off as the real thing.

 

It would really disturb me to pay genuine price for a counterfeit article.

[okbustchaser]

Question 1. That would depend on 1 or 2 things...

A) Whether or not I knew it was counterfiet. If so, then no, I wouldn't want one. I would want the history of the real example.

 

If, on the other hand I didn't know about a particular example, then

 

B) Whether an example belonged in my collection. For example, a fake 1892 S Morgan??? No, but I have no desire to own a real one either. On the other end of the financial spectrum...a fake 2003 Lincoln? No, but once again I don't want a real one either. However, a totally (short of destructive analysis) undetectable counterfiet 1797 half? I would be every bit as happy with the counterfiet's implied history as if it were real. Why not, there is no demonstrable difference between the two.

 

Question 2. See my answer to question 1.

 

Question 3. Why should I? My example isn't for sale. In a generation there will be no way to "prove" mine was any more or less authentic than the counterfiet.

[dooly]

There is only two types of Counterfeit coins i would have in my collection a conempary and one that i did not know about

 

The first would stay in the collection the other would be removed "If" i ever found it

 

Hear is one of my "iffy" coins even NCS & NGC were "Unsure" about it Sorry its not from the USA

[jesbroken]

answers:

1) no

2) yes

3) like *spoon*

 

My reasoning is that the only possible reason to have a counterfeit coin in your possession would be to defraud someone. No other reason possible. If you just wanted an exact replica of a coin you could not afford they are available for $24.99 anywhere. Therefore, as the hypothetical case is proffered, you know it is counterfeit, thus, you must wish to defraud someone to keep it in your collection.

JMO.