Help with understanding the British Penny

[MikeKing]

The reason why I'm asking this question is because of the (copper) Washington Liberty and Security 'Penny' which is undated, but probably made just before 1795, by a Birmingham firm. There is speculation that they were probably trying to make a presence in the US by putting these coins into circulation here, in hopes of getting a contract with the US Govt for minting our coinage. Yes, there was a US Mint in 1795, but I read that the US mint was having 'problems', so I don't know if this was part of the reason for this Birmingham firm for making this coin.

 

Let's say all the above is true. I would suspect then that they would want to put into US coin circulation, a coin that approximated a penny. No?

 

So I tried to find out the size and weight of a British penny was in 1795.

 

All I can come up with was reference to the British government in 1797, giving authority to Matthew Boulton to make copper pennies, and these were 28.3 grams in weight and were 36 mm in diameter.

 

The Washington Liberty and Security 'penny' is 19.44 grams (300 grains) and 33 mm diameter.

 

The Liberty Cap Cent was 13.5 grams 28 mm.

 

Is my understanding of the British penny correct, and what was the British penny like before 1787?

[dooly]

Two Half pennys !!

 

untill 1695

 

pre this date they were still using hammered coins from as far back as the 1100's

 

the last real penny before the 1797 "Cartwheel" George III

was Charles the II 1660-1685 and maundy 1d's but they were thin on the ground

 

I know thats as clear as mud but we dont do anyting simply over hear, We were always having a Scrap with some one

[farthing]

The copper coinage of 1797 by Boulton was a full-weight coin, ie. a penny's worth of copper in the penny and 2d worth in the twopence which causes their large size, they are commonly referred to a "cartwheels". The copper pennies of 1806-07 were also struck at the Soho mint by Boulton with a size of 34mm and a weight of 18.9 grams. This probably also matches the size and weight of the patterns struck by Boulton in 1799. When struck again beginning in 1825 the size was the same but the weight was reduced to 18.8 grams.

 

1795 would be in the midst of the great token coinage of the 1790's, commonly referred to as "Conder" tokens. Boulton and the Soho mint and Birmingham as a whole were deeply involved in the manufacture of these tokens. Boulton was also trying to win a contract with the crown to produce coins at this time.

[MikeKing]

so what I'm getting from this is that there was a need for circulating copper, especially in the provinces, so people could work and get paid in this lower denomination. The Conder tokens were an answer to this paucity of coppers and they were used as money, having a reputable size, heaviness and amount of copper. And too, as with the need to tokens in this era, the Washington Liberty and Security 'Penny", which was a of a size and weight consistent with what a penny 'should be', was a token spread as propaganda or a way of showing 'friendship' exploiting a need for small change in America.

 

 

[farthing]

That's about it. Royal copper pennies were first minted for circulation in 1797. Prior to that only farthings and half pennies were mined, and they had been minted very infrequently at that, being a base medal and being viewed as "not worthy" of regal coinage. Most of what was circulating was lightweight and counterfeit, not withstanding the laws of the land. With the Industrial Revolution in full swing there was not enough small value coins to pay the workers that had moved into the cities. This shortage was especially acute in the provinces.

 

There are several tokens manufactured in England that are listed in both the Dalton & Hamer Conder token book as well as the Red Book - the Kentucky token and the Franklin Press token are two examples as are some of the Washington tokens. Then there are the Talbot, Allum and Lee tokens, the Myddleton tokens and the New York Theatre tokens that were made in England by manufactures that were also busy with minting Conder tokens.

 

The Washington Liberty and Security tokens are catalogued as Middlesex 243 and 244 for the penny sized tokens and Middlesex 1052 for the half penny sized tokens.

 

Conder101 probably could add more light onto the history of these specific tokens.

[Conder101]

Before 1797 there was no such thing as a copper British penny, and even for the silver version you have to go back at least a hundred years and even then it wasn't a real circulation piece. For a circulation silver penny you have to go way back.

 

The Tower Mint standard in the 1770's for copper half pence was 46 coins struck from a pound of copper. This would make a half penny equal to 9.86 grams. So a theoretical copper penny would have weighed 19.72 grams. (At the Tower mint standard the half penny was a subsidary coin containing less than the face value of metal. This allowed the profit from the seniorage of the copper coinage to pay the expenses of the silver and gold coinage. The 1797 coinage was a full intrinsic value coinage with the penny weighing 28.3 grams.)

 

You also mention that the Liberty cap cent weighed 13.5 grams. The early liberty cap cents were a near intrinsic value coin as well, but in 1795 they became a subsidiary coin with a weight reduction to 10.89 grams. So you can see that the US cent was a weight very comparable to the Tower standard for the half penny. So if the Liberty & Security penny had been circulated here it would have passed as a two cent piece, a coin that was not part of our coinage system and not really a good fit with the other foreign coins circulating here at the time either.

 

There was a Liberty and Security half penny produced as well, Middlesex 1052. It comes with five different edge inscriptions including the same one seen on the panny token. Only one of these edge varieties is common, and it is NOT the same one used for the penny, but rather one used for tokens commonly circulating in London. So a token which supposedly was produced to try and win a coinage contract was struck and issued in larger numbers for circulation in England than for the country it was supposedly for.

 

I really don't think the Liberty and Security half penny was issued as a proposed pattern for a coinage proposal but rather as a political statement of support for the United States. Many of the Middlesex tokens of this era were used as political propaganda. The Penny token was most likely simply a piece issued for sale to collectors. There was a great interest in collection the tokens being issued at the time and many manufacturers produced high quality pieces specificly for the collector market and not circulation. This is especially true with the penny tokens, almost none of which were actually struck for circulation. Most of them carry no indication of value are are more like medals than coins.

[MikeKing]

THANKS everyone for helping me out here.

Conder101, the token I have is obviously gilt under the patination, yet the coin is AU. Do you think the wear is from being a pocketpiece or something like that?

[Conder101]

I'm not aware of those pieces being issued in gilt copper, and gilt would not show patina because the gold does not tone. Any wear could be either from being a pocketpiece, or possibly from brief circulation in England as a penny token.

[dooly]

Hi all

 

Gilt pennys were produced For George III as proofs

 

1797 Proof Obv: 1 Rev: 1 (late soho issue several Varieties)

1806 Proof Obv: 2 Rev: 2

1806 Proof Obv: 2 Rev: 2 Medal alinement

1806 Proof Obv: 2 Rev: 2 (Late Soho issue at least 2 Varieties)

1806 Proof Obv: 2 Rev: 2 Edge plain

1806 Proof Obv: 2 Rev: 2 Thin flan Plain edge

1807 Proof Obv: 2 Rev: 2

 

Could you post a picture of your coin

(most of them are rare and are worth a lot of $'s)

hear is mine:-

[gedis3]

I swear, if I ever become King and they put me on a coin, they better not include my double chin or someone's flippin' head is gonna get lopped off.

[dooly]

I swear, if I ever become King and they put me on a coin, they better not include my double chin or someone's flippin' head is gonna get lopped off.

 

HaHaHa

[MikeKing]

that is funny!

 

thanks for pointing that out conder. I didn't think of that, that the gold wouldn't tone like that. I suppose then,

the gilding must have been worn off most of the coin for it to be so patinated,

and perhaps then, the gold that shows through is not showing through,

it's just what was left of the gold that didn't patinate.

 

I found one gilt specimen auctioned off at heritage.

 

dooly, thanks for posting that coin. very nice.

 

this is my coin:

 

 

 

an area with some verdigris, but the edge reflects the gold pretty much the way it looks