Can anyone show me a photo of a notched 13th star in the 1817/3 overdate Bustie?

[MikeKing]

I can't find one (and if you show me a photo of my own, I'll scream).

[MikeKing]

the Heritage 1817/3 PCGS MS64 1817/3 up for auction currently:

 

 

Where's the notch?????????????

[JRocco]

Hey Mike,

No signature on the 1817/3

[MikeKing]

How about showing us the rest of that coin!!!

 

And why isn't there a notch?

[JRocco]

Hi Mike,

I don't have Souders book with me now, but I believe that there was a design change in 1817 and that the scalloped star is not existent this year, The design was made shallower if I remember correctly. Some of the changes caused the poorer strike on many of the 17's I believe.

As for this coin---here she is-one of my favorite overdates.

[WoodenJefferson]

And why isn't there a notch?

You want a notch...here's a notch!

But seriously, I'd like to see what you are refering to also, first I hear of a diagnostic with the 13th star notched, in any year.

[MikeKing]

the notched 13th star is supposedly Reich's covert signature, and is present on all CBH's from 1807-1815, he resigned in 1817 and ther'es only one 1817 die he made, and that wasn't used until, I think 1818 (I could be wrong, not sure). But when Scot took over in 1817, he used a couple of older dies and punched dates over them, e.g., the 1817/3 is the 1813 die with a 7 punched over the 3.

the 1817/4 is the 1814 with a 7 punched over the 4, so both of those should still have the notched star. If you look at the photos of the 1817/4 that I linked above, you will see that they both have notched 13th stars. But I don't see them on any 1817/3's. Odd.

 

And forgive me if I'm wrong, so please correct me, but I recall reading somewhere that the likely reason for the rarity 1817/4 (I think there are only 7 specimens recorded) is that they tried to efface the 4 before punching over the 7 thus weakening the die which shattered soon after it's being put to use. The thought being for the 1817/3 is that they learned from this experience so didn't try to efface the 3 when they punched the 7 in that one, thus the very clear 7/3.

 

That doesn't make sense to me if the emission sequence was the 1817/3 FIRST and then the 1817/4...does it.

 

 

 

My own photos don't blow up well but I clipped out the 13th stars on a few of them

my 1808, 1814/3 and 1814, to give you examples of what the notched star looks like:

 

p.s. John, thanks for posting your 1817/3!

[MikeKing]

And why isn't there a notch?

You want a notch...here's a notch!

 

That's some notch, but it's not the notch I'm talking about!!!

[MBA101]

I am only guessing, but I think that the dies were notched by Reich when the dies were actually used, so maybe he had resigned before the 1817/3 was minted?

 

Unless someone has a better explanation?

[BillJones]

I'm quite sure that Reich used a notched star punch when he was making his dies. When he made them the notched star was always the last one.

 

Reich signed his half eagle dies as well as his half dollar dies. Clear evidence that he used a notched star punch is confirmed by a variety (BD-1 in the new book on early half eagles) of 1818 $5 gold coin. On this piece the die sinker used a notched star punch to sink all 13 stars that appear on the obverse of the coin. Reich was no long employed at the mint when the dies for that piece were prepared.

 

Here is a picture of the 1813 half eagle from my collection and a close-up of the star. I have an 1811 half ealge which also has a notched star.

 

 

[JRocco]

Here are a couple of examples of a scalloped 13th star.

[MikeKing]

This is great input. I was unaware of the notched stars being used in the Gold pieces and also the story about the 1818, which I think is marvelous.

 

I wrote to Edgar Souders about the question of why no notch in the stars of the 1817/3 and he was nice enough to answer (and my apologies for any inaccuracies in relaying his message). He suggests that the particular die used for the 1817/3 was forged by Reich with the central device only. His thought is that the die had faults from gas bubbles in the steel which revealed themselves when the die was heated to work on, so Reich just put it aside. This caused pits in the die which made Reich reject it, and you can see evidence of these pits in the early die state 1817/3's by virtue of the die lumps present on the surfaces.

 

Scot, after Reich had resigned, had a multitude of pressures and grabbed what he could so to speak and used that die by punching the 7 over the 3 without lapping it, and too, the stars were added at that time, thus no scallop.

 

Interesting stuff.