Bearded Goddess

[MikeKing]

The Bearded Goddess is one coin I always thought I'd never want. I figured my Bust Half collection would be 'complete' enough without one. Also, they're prohibitively expensive. Harry Laibstain Laibstain has a gorgeous one that is a PCGS VF 35 for $8,000.00. Seems kind of high, but the resolution of the die break is one of the best I've seen.

 

A high grade example, also exquisite, was sold by Sheridan Downey recently, I forget the price realized and the grade, but it was nice.

 

The NGC Registry doesn't give points (well, it gives 3 points no matter what the grade) for the Bearded Goddess. But, for myself, I'm not creating a set for competition, so it really doesn't matter to me, though, it would be nice if there were more than 3 points for this coin.

 

Looking at the Heritage archives, I found 10 specimens (not including cleaned or corroded specimens) in all grades, over the past 10 years. I don't know how complete their listing is, but there were a few really nice specimens in there. Most were kind of yucky, which is why I've shyed away from them.

 

Then I saw a reasonably priced, or what I thought was a reasonable price, for one in condition (this is where I'm asking you for your opinions), from Osburn. In fact, when I went through the Heritage archives, I found this coin, which apparently sold in 2005. I asked him if I could look at it, and he sent it, and I think I will keep it.

 

Why?

 

Well, putting affordability aside right now, the coin was a bit of a surprise, in that it wasn't as bad as I would have thought.

 

It's not a perfect , but outside of a couple of scratches, the surfaces aren't half bad. Everything is visible, and the crack, which is more apparent in hand (I don't know why my photos, which were hasty, don't show the crack as well developed as it is), is pretty well developed. I liked it. Suddenly, I felt a need for the Bearded Goddess, and that need was fulfilled.

 

So here it is. Please grade it (without cheating by looking it up) and I'm open to any positive or negative comments (all hopefully constructive) in your opinions.

 

There's a pretty heavy scuff mark on the holder over the obverse that blurs the photo (over LIBERTY), but not much I can do about that.

 

Thanks.

 

edited to add: the Heritage archives list it as an R5, but the Bust Half Nut Club has it rates as an R4+.

 

[CoinAddict]

Very nice bustie. I will say she is a vg.

[123cents]

Did you buy it from the Osburn in Kemah Texas? I was just wondering. I talked to him at the Houston Money show if it is the same person.

[WinstonWare]

8. I was looking through my copy of “Auction and Mail Bid Prices Realized for Bust Half Dollars,” and these coins do come around sometimes- looks like 2 or 3/year that gets into this guide which doesn’t include ebay and coin shops. The scratch on the obverse gets to me a little and is noted in my guide. I think that I would pass but that’s JMHO. Hope that’s helpful.

[JRocco]

Hey Mike, I was going to reply via PM, but that is not fair. We need to be honest to ourselves both good and bad.

I don't like this one. I respect your eye and knowledge of this series, but based on these pics-I would pass on this one. They are tough, but not impossible to find and I would hold out for a nicer example. Even in this grade I have seen much better eye appeal goddesses than this one. They are out there and for a little more dosh I think you could find a lot more coin.

Please don't be offended at my opinion. I just don't like this one.

[MikeKing]

no offense taken whatsoever. keep it comin'!

(i.e., I like all input here)

[TraderGuys-migration]

For what its worth, my opinion is to also stay away from this one. As soon as I opened this thread, my eyes were drawn to the scratch on the obverse. I'm no expert on these but that scratch just kills it for me.

 

Bruce

[EZ_E]

Mike, I loved your write up on this! Very interesting and riveting.

 

This is a decent coin of a rare variety so you have to weigh matters out yourself. Ask yourself if you would have any problems if you were to turn around and sell that coin tomorrow. Does it satisfy your collecting goals?

 

As an advanced collector like yourself knows, one should avoid a coin with "buts". Well, this would be a good coin but for the......scratch, etc.

 

If matters were just black and white then the decision would be no. However, there are gray areas here that must be considered as well. But it is you, sir, that must do the weighing.

[TomB]

The 1807 CBH is an interesting issue in that it is not only the first issue to feature this design motif, but it is also a design produced in the same year as an entirely different cirulating design for the same denomination. Additionally, the 1807 and 1808 issues comprise the entirety of subtype one for the CBH series, and this subtype differs quite a bit in overall appearance from later subtypes. Two of the more notable differences include a more svelte Ms. Liberty and a thinner eagle that appears to be positioned lower on the reverse, both of which are sculpted in lower relief when compared to later issues of the series. Lastly, I believe the mintage figures for the 1807 CBH are incorrect and are too high; the coin simply does not appear enough to reflect the published output.

 

I will also state upfront that I have never been a fan of the Bearded Goddess and the reason for this is the exhorbitant premium, in my opinion, attached to a die crack of a relatively attainable die marriage. The Bearded Goddess is the O.111b die marriage, but the O.111a die marriage, which is the same pair of die in an earlier die state without a pronounced crack, is available for a fraction of the cost. In my opinion, this coin is the epitome of happenstance and a good nickname within a series that is collected by die variety. Please understand that these are my personal opinions and that they do not necessarily reflect the thoughts of others.

 

Regardless, what I would want in a CBH is originality of surfaces above all else. Therefore, I believe I might find this coin to be particularly attractive or compelling. The immediate, obvious attention-grabbing feature is the small, dagger-like incision in the obverse field. However, that does not bother me since it appears to have been contemporary with circulation and has retained gunk and dirt. I cannot tell what the coin would look like in-hand, but if it has an auburn-grey look to it that is not overly glossy then I like the surfaces and, hence, like the appearance of the coin. If it is quite slick and has had the patina disturbed or removed from the fields then I do not like the coin. You will have to answer this for yourself and will have to let us know.

 

The subtype one issues cannot be graded in a manner identical to later issues and this causes most folks to undergrade these coins by quite a bit. In my opinion, this coin is better than VG10, but might not be nice enough to be F12. If the surfaces are particularly choice then I would go with F12, but would expect a deduction if the surfaces are not choice or if the obverse incision is more distracting to the grader or buyer than it is to me.

[MBA101]

Without looking at everyone else's responses, I would say F-12, keeping in mind that these older coins could generally handle less wear than later dates. I would definitely snag this if I had the chance (and the money available). Nice coin!

 

Now to look at what everyone else says...

[MikeKing]

I appreciate all the well thought out opinions about this coin, and welcome more.

Before I digest all of this and say anything, I want to post the photos used by Heritage in 2005, which are somewhat better than my own (which isn't saying much), but the scuff marks weren't on the holder then.

 

To me, the surfaces appear rather original, but this is just my opinion. They are rather scuffed up, and there are a few deeper scratches, some of which are not easily seen through the patina, which is a pearlescent grey, that to me, compares nicely to some other Bust Halves I've examined, and which I believe to be fairly original.

 

Tom, thanks for the rendition on the subtype I and how it plays into grading as well.

 

[MBA101]

The better pics make me want to up the grade to an "F-15"...

[James_OldeTowne]

There are some die-hard (read "excessively stringent") BHNC members that might choose to pass on this coin due to the die-state, but if I had the opportunity, I'd buy it in a second. I grade it VG-10, and that's taking into account the minor surface defects which, after all, aren't out of line with a well-used coin. Considering the limited availability of these coins, I would be retailing it for $700, and expect to end up getting $650 or so for it. There is absolutely no downside to owning this coin, either.

 

It goes without saying that I would have it cracked out in a matter of seconds if it were my coin.

 

There's a coin I've been looking at in a BHNC member's collection (I'll call him LW), and his has more detail, but it's been cleaned and processed. His is admittedly a little bit later die-state, but he wants MUCH more for the coin than the amounts I mentioned above.

[123cents]

I never knew anything about the "Bearded Goddess" till I read your thread Mike. After reading all the posts and seeing the new picture, I have to admit I like your coin. I would guess that it would grade VG-8 to VG-10.

[MBA101]

There are some die-hard (read "excessively stringent") BHNC members that might choose to pass on this coin due to the die-state, but if I had the opportunity, I'd buy it in a second. I grade it VG-10, and that's taking into account the minor surface defects which, after all, aren't out of line with a well-used coin. Considering the limited availability of these coins, I would be retailing it for $700, and expect to end up getting $650 or so for it. There is absolutely no downside to owning this coin, either.

 

It goes without saying that I would have it cracked out in a matter of seconds if it were my coin.

 

There's a coin I've been looking at in a BHNC member's collection (I'll call him LW), and his has more detail, but it's been cleaned and processed. His is admittedly a little bit later die-state, but he wants MUCH more for the coin than the amounts I mentioned above.

 

Looks like it was in an NGC VG-8 holder. And cost more money than that.

If you are a die pairing and die state collector, it would be neat to own regardless.

[James_OldeTowne]

There are some die-hard (read "excessively stringent") BHNC members that might choose to pass on this coin due to the die-state, but if I had the opportunity, I'd buy it in a second. I grade it VG-10, and that's taking into account the minor surface defects which, after all, aren't out of line with a well-used coin. Considering the limited availability of these coins, I would be retailing it for $700, and expect to end up getting $650 or so for it. There is absolutely no downside to owning this coin, either.

 

It goes without saying that I would have it cracked out in a matter of seconds if it were my coin.

 

There's a coin I've been looking at in a BHNC member's collection (I'll call him LW), and his has more detail, but it's been cleaned and processed. His is admittedly a little bit later die-state, but he wants MUCH more for the coin than the amounts I mentioned above.

 

Looks like it was in an NGC VG-8 holder. And cost more money than that.

If you are a die pairing and die state collector, it would be neat to own regardless.

I looked up a few more coins, and on second thought, I think $650 is indeed too low. $800+ seems to be more realistic!

 

VG-8 seems conservative to me, and I suspect NGC thought the coin has VG-10/F-12 details, but deducted a couple of points to account for the surface defects. For a coin this popular and difficult to find, that would make much more sense than BBing it, or sticking it in an NCS holder.

[SlumLord98-migration]

Mike,

 

I like the coin! It isn't perfect, but it is almost certainly a better choice than the VF+ for $8k. It has a very nice look to it.

 

Paying a premium for an otherwise available die marriage has always caused me consternation, but this is a long established and truly charismatic die state of a not so common die marriage. 1807s in general have soared in value the last several years and may retreat somewhat when the market corrects, but if you are in a long term hold position, the premium is irrelevant, as the new benchmark will be that much higher in the future. These will be popular as long as US coins are collected. You might be more careful if you are considering a recently described die state for a hefty premium. No one can say for sure how rare it may be and whether the premium will apply in the future.

 

As for your other question, the BHNC regards O.111 as an R4+ die marriage. 111a and 111b are both regarded as R5 die states.

 

Brad

[MikeKing]

thanks for all the input + and -, as it's all meant well and an offering of opinion which is valued either way.

The coin was graded as a VG8 by NGC, and I would suspect, as some have also suspected, it borders into the VF in detail but is very scratched up, so I would think the NGC grader called it a VG8.

 

MBA makes a good point that the older coinage didn't withstand usage as well as later date coinage. I mean, look at the surfaces!

 

But, there is no but! Here, for me, at least. My own eye does not mind the pin scratch at all. In other coins, it would probably bother me immensely, and in a high grade coin, the tiniest nick can drive me crazy. I think it's, yes, a matter of personal perspective, and for me, allowing myself the appreciation of a coin in this condition. It actually wasn't hard for me to do, in fact, I had no resistance, so in that respect, the pin scratches are OK and don't detract.

 

Remember too, this year is notorious for a lousy strike, and while there is weakness in the L wing, I think, overall, even in this well worn coin, you can see that the strike is actually pretty good.

 

If I had the 8K to throw around, I'd buy the Laibstain coin in a snap, but looking at my collecting interests overall, that 8K needs to go elsewhere. The price was $850, which I felt was appropriate for the grade and the visibility of the die crack, which is pretty good.

 

There are a couple of other goodies in this coin.

The 50/20 (really 50 over an upside down '5' according to Souders) is easily visible with a little magnification, even for my eyes, and the 13th star shows that little notch so well.

 

Overall, I think this coin is nicely original with scratches and scuffing consistent with the level of wear it achieved in circulation, a pretty good strike, classic 50 over upside down 5 and a neat 13th start to go with this very interesting and popular die crack that would cost me a small fortune otherwise. All the bang for the buck that would make me keep this coin.

 

 

 

edited to add: and thanks Brad, for straightening out the R4/R5 question.

[James_OldeTowne]

edited to add: and thanks Brad, for straightening out the R4/R5 question.

Brad is one BHNC member who knows his noodles. Brad, if you're still there, are you coming to St. Louis for Central States?

[MBA101]

BTW: Mike, have you gotten that 1810 yet?

[SlumLord98-migration]

Yes, James, I will be there. A significant numismatic event is scheduled to take place then. Sorry to be cryptic, but if you read the papers, all will be told in due time. And thank you for the kind words!

[MikeKing]

What if you don't read the papers...?

[James_OldeTowne]

Yes, James, I will be there. A significant numismatic event is scheduled to take place then. Sorry to be cryptic, but if you read the papers, all will be told in due time. And thank you for the kind words!

Brad, keep an evening open for dinner, then! I think I may have a faint notion of the secret event....

[Mozin]

I think you paid a fair price for your Bearded Gal. It is missing from my collection. Actually, I never even came close to owning one.

 

Those Draped Bust guys are always coming up with something to talk about.

[MikeKing]

After all I said, I sent the coin back. I think it's important for me to give my reasoning, even though it terminated in my sending the coin back, or you might think I"m just crazy, because, the reasoning process is important no matter what the decision is.

 

The final clincher here was that for the coin, and for what I'm looking for in my collection on limited funds, I thought it was the most reasonable thing for me to do. If the coin were a drop dead gorgeous G8, I would have thought otherwise.

[TomB]

I see nothing wrong with your decision since it appears that the coin did not "sing" to you.

[WinstonWare]

I couldn’t agree more with Tom. I don’t own any coins that I’m not excited to see each time I take them out. If I tire of a coin, it’s time for the coin to have a new owner who can enthusiastically appreciate it.