Following BillJones: a 1794 cent first BB'd then slabbed...

[Hoot]

I sold a 1794 cent to a client last year who really liked the piece. Frankly, there was nothing to not like about the piece. It was a 1794 S-44, LDS (late die state) with average surfaces. The coin was brown with only slight color variation across the surfaces. The coin was purchased for a type collection, but the collector decided to move the pieces from a Dansco album to slabs and therefore wanted all pieces slabbed. When submitted, the coin was returned with an "altered surface" BB. The collector was unhappy and, rightfully, wondered if I might have sold him an "unslabable" coin. I asked that he return it and that I "dull it down" to make it acceptable to a TPG, then submit it with one of my orders.

 

The coin took on the appearance of what I like to call "TPC acceptability" and got slabbed. Oddly, the TPG graded the coin perfectly according to EAC standards. (This is fairly rare, but less rare with lower grade material.) The coin, as mentioned, is LDS, and thus comes with a partially sunken east side of the reverse die, due to a complete split. It's an excellent example of the "head of '94."

 

Below are two picture: First the scan I made of the coin before I sold it and second the scan made after it was made "TPG acceptable." Same coin, just the first time around with a little CARE on the surfaces.

 

 

Hoot

[Hoot]

Okay, here it is after being slabbed (I forgot to scan it before I sent it in).

 

 

Hoot

[PerryHall]

What technique did you use to dull the surfaces?

[MAULEMALL]

What technique did you use to dull the surfaces?

Did Della do some Darkinin

[Bruceswar]

Mark that is a sweet coin and I know the story behind it. Sweet!!!

[Hoot]

What technique did you use to dull the surfaces?

 

Acetone and a light brushing with an old brush.

 

Hoot

[EZ_E]

Gee, Hoot, this collector feels like a specimen in a petrie dish. You can use my name. Since when have I ever been bashful??

 

my image:

 

 

Mark's image:

 

 

p.s. Mark is the slightly less furry one.

 

[BillJones]

Hoot, I am truly amazed if this 1794 large cent made into a normal TPG holder. Are you sure it was not an NCS holder?

 

I guess I should send the coins that flunked to a coin doctor. None of the pieces that I've had rejected had as many surface problems as this one.

[Hoot]

Gee, Hoot, this collector feels like a specimen in a petrie dish. You can use my name. Since when have I ever been bashful??

 

Well, heck-far Victor! I wuz just tryin' to be all eeenoneemus n' all that thar.

 

Hoot

[Hoot]

Hoot, I am truly amazed if this 1794 large cent made into a normal TPG holder. Are you sure it was not an NCS holder?

 

No, the coin is in a PCGS holder. Scans are notoriously bad for exaggerating surface contrasts, so you have to take some of what appear to be problems with a grain of salt.

 

Bill - I think your whole point is illustrated here by the fact that there is a great deal of inconsistency in the whole copper world. The coin I showed looks like most 200+ year old circulated copper coins. Well, probably better than average, since it isn't rotting from verdigris. (I think you'd like the coin quite a bit in-hand, particularly if you're familiar with the variety.)

 

If copper is ever to gain market grading acceptance, then it needs to be graded with the same caveats as early silver and gold.

 

Hoot

[EZ_E]

Gee, Hoot, this collector feels like a specimen in a petrie dish. You can use my name. Since when have I ever been bashful??

 

Well, heck-far Victor! I wuz just tryin' to be all eeenoneemus n' all that thar.

 

Hoot

 

Hey, I actually understood that. Ya know you might be a redneck if you can understand Hoot's Hillbilly Humor.

 

None of the pieces that I've had rejected had as many surface problems as this one.

 

Bill, you want to elaborate? I think that the coin's planchet is really pretty sweet.

[leeg]

This one is beyond nice!

[BillJones]

Bill, you want to elaborate? I think that the coin's planchet is really pretty sweet.

 

Quite a bit of the surface on this coin is finely porous. The fellow who took the green away did a great job, but you can’t fix the surfaces without smoothing them. In other words, this coin would be called “skuzzy” in copper language, not “average.” The skuzzy part is high end, but the coin has more surface problems than the 1797 half cent I posted earlier.

 

BTW I've heard the PCGS can be more forgiving on these early coins. A few dealers have told me that, and I’ve seen a few PCGS early copper coins that had MAJOR problems catch net grades despite the fact that they claimed they would never do that. These net graded coins were early copper pieces and Bust dollars.

[Hoot]

this coin would be called “skuzzy” in copper language, not “average.”

 

Hi Bill - This coin was graded VF25 details, VF20, Average (surfaces) by the majority of people at the EAC summer seminar this last summer, including the instructors, Doug Bird and Steve Carr. Others graded it VF20, F15, A, but no one gave it less than average surfaces. It was one of several of my coins passed around the classroom for grading. The most difficult aspect of this coin to grade is the odd strike that comes from thw split die.

 

This might go to show how onerous it is to grade anything from a photo/scan.

 

Hoot

[MikeInFL]

First off, Hoot, you know I hold you in the highest of regards, but let's just say I'm counting the days until you get a CAMERA!

 

That said, this story didn't surprise me that much.

 

I'm not sure which TPG you sent it to, but PCGS seems to be very reticent to slab coins that have oil on their surfaces. The other large TPG seems to be much more lenient, as was pointed out elsewhere, particularly if you've got a pedigree and sell through a certain auction house, but I don't often see non-pedigreed slabbed large cents with obvious care/blue ribbon on them. Glossy from light brushing, sometimes, but rarely obvious gloss caused by oil.

 

The lesson I take away is that care/blue ribbon are great for keeping copper from aging badly, just remember to remove them before you send the copper to a TPG.

 

Thanks for sharing...Mike

 

[edited for punctuation, which Hoot was kind enough to quote before I could. ]

[Hoot]

First off, Hoot, you know I hold you in the highest of regards, but let's just say I'm counting the days until you get a CAMERA!

 

Ain't gonna happen. You and others will just have to put up with my lousy scans.

 

I'm not sure which TPG you sent it to, but PCGS seems to be very reticent to slab coins that have oil on their surfaces.

 

PCGS, then PCGS.

 

The lesson I take away, is that care/blue ribbon are great for keeping copper from aging badly, just remember to remove them before you send the copper to a TPG.

 

Yup. Make it look dull and dry as a good martini.

 

Hoot

[MikeKing]

What technique did you use to dull the surfaces?

 

Acetone and a light brushing with an old brush.

 

Hoot

 

what kind of brush did you use?

[Hoot]

What technique did you use to dull the surfaces?

 

Acetone and a light brushing with an old brush.

 

Hoot

 

what kind of brush did you use?

 

Camel hair. One that I've used on many coppers. When you use a camel hair brush on coppers, over time the brush takes up the color of oxidized copper (green) and the patina of the coins brushed. The bristles, which are pretty soft in the first place, soften and become frayed. Brushes of this nature are often used without the addition of oils, etc., to the surface of the coins and impart a nice looking, protective finish to the coins, while ridding them of dust, etc. It's a very old wayof caring for copper.

 

Hoot

[IGWT]

I've heard that some old time collectors would sooner part with their wives than with their brushes.

[MikeKing]

I've heard that some old time collectors would sooner part with their wives than with their brushes.

 

that's an old wive's tale

[MikeKing]

What technique did you use to dull the surfaces?

 

Acetone and a light brushing with an old brush.

 

Hoot

 

what kind of brush did you use?

 

Camel hair. One that I've used on many coppers. When you use a camel hair brush on coppers, over time the brush takes up the color of oxidized copper (green) and the patina of the coins brushed. The bristles, which are pretty soft in the first place, soften and become frayed. Brushes of this nature are often used without the addition of oils, etc., to the surface of the coins and impart a nice looking, protective finish to the coins, while ridding them of dust, etc. It's a very old wayof caring for copper.

 

Hoot

 

like how long do you have to brush a coin? an hour? a minute???

can it cause hairlines?

[Zoins]

Great thread Hoot. Very informative!

[Hoot]

like how long do you have to brush a coin? an hour? a minute??? can it cause hairlines?

 

Hi Mike - I'll try to explain how I've broken in a few brushes, post a pic of two of brushes that I currently use, and describe their use. (I know this is more than you asked for, but I hope it'll be informative.)

 

The easiest way to break in brushes for coppers is to use them repeatedly on low-grade coins. I have a wealth of junk box coppers, both foreign and domestic, and these coins are in every state of preservation, but mostly bad. With a new brush, I begin by applying CARE or Blue Ribbon (BR) on the brush directly, then begin brushing all pieces of junk copper. Remember, copper from the late 1700s and early 1800s has many impurities that can cause all kinds of colors and patterns to emerge over time on a copper piece. Those impurities, as well as copper, will get transferred to the brush as it is used. After the first or second trial of brushing, each of which will last about an hour with multiple coins, I do not apply an oil to the brush, but rather to a coin if I decide that the brush is getting too "dry."

 

I try to keep the brush only slightly oily and test it on the palm of my hand to see if it imparts a residue; if readily noticeable, I brush the brush on a lint-free cotton fabric to dry it out. Then I keep brushing junk. After about 5-10 hours of brushing, the brush has usually begun to fray a bit and is becoming softer, and is also beginning to pick up some color, which is green to gray to black. That's when the brush is ready for coins.

 

Brushing coins should never be done on high grade pieces, particularly if they have remaining Mint red. To answer your question about hairlines, yes, it is entirely possible to hairline a coin with a soft camel hair brush. That's precisely why you have to break in a brush before using on coins you care about, brush lightly, only enough to impart the effect you desire, and only circulated full-brown coins.

 

With time, a brush becomes very soft from the fraying. They can be washed if they become too gunky, stiff from oils, or if you feel you've picked up major debris. In case of debris, they should be washed (Woolite works best). Gunk in a brush can scratch a coin, so you have to keep an eye on what you're doing - always.

 

Well-worn brushes are valuable and represent many hours of brushing coins. The natural fiber brushes will take on a patina that lives with the brush and eventually becomes so embedded in the fibers that it gives the brush a sort-of "signature" and you'll be able to predict how it will affect coins. Thus, many copper collectors have a lineup of brushes - one for Deller's Darkener, one for BR, one for CARE, one strictly for removing lint from coins, etc. They will be kept with a certain degree of oiliness, color, etc., and become a valuable part of the maintenance of a copper collection.

 

As a rule of thumb, I typically only lightly brush a coin that I want to oil with 10-25 strikes per side. I do not like thick oil on a coin and it's easy to do that with copper. Coins that are being darkened require more involved processes that I won't describe here, partly because it takes a lot of practice to figure out how and when to do what!

 

Below, the top, newer looking brush, is my newest addition that I use with only Blue Ribbon. The dark brush below that is a brush that has had many hours of use, and is used for Deller's Darkener and CARE in combination. The new one is just getting to the point that I'm using it on coins that matter, while the older one is used quite predictably and has seen many-a-coin.

 

 

Hope this helps explain a few things.

 

Hoot

[MikeKing]

Thanks a lot HOOT. I appreciate it.

I was expecting a much smaller brush, like a paint brush.

May I ask where you obtain these brushes?

[leeg]

"Super" info listed here for us beginning old copper collectors!

Much appreciated

[DC Dawg]

(I know this is more than you asked for, but I hope it'll be informative.)

It is an excellent post! Very informative!

Maybe, once the questions have been answered, you can fill in some of the details and make this a WYNTK post?

 

One question I had is that you mentioned "CARE and Blue Ribbon." What are they and how do they differ? (ok... that's two... but it's one in my world of working with the government! )

 

Scott

[MikeKing]

(I know this is more than you asked for, but I hope it'll be informative.)

It is an excellent post! Very informative!

Maybe, once the questions have been answered, you can fill in some of the details and make this a WYNTK post?

 

...

 

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, (this is for HOOT)

[Hoot]

May I ask where you obtain these brushes?

 

Hi Mike - I purchase them from Rod Buress, whose name and contact information is found on EACS.org under "Resources." He would likely mail a price list to anyone who wanted one. Good fellow. I found a manufacturer of these brushes, but they have to be bought in bulk.

 

Hoot

[Hoot]

One question I had is that you mentioned "CARE and Blue Ribbon." What are they and how do they differ? (ok... that's two... but it's one in my world of working with the government! )

 

Scott

 

I'll give you the 2-fer answer .

 

I have no idea. Blue ribbon seems to me to have less of a solvent quality and more of the quality of a good "coin oil" preservative. CARE seems to be more of a solvent than BR, particularly eliminating surface grime, but also works well to preserve. CARE is a lighter oil than BR.

 

Hoot