Grade this Trime

[pendragon1998]

I got this trime almost a year ago from a board member as a gift. It's still my only example of a silver three cent piece. I just got my pics back from Bruce (per his kind Christmas present to the board). Bruce thought I was a little low in my grading on this coin, so I thought I'd show off his pics and ask for opinions. I made an attempt to adjust his photos' white balance and contrast based on the white of the 2x2 this coin was photographed in. I think this is fairly close to the coin's appearance, although it has a little more color depending on the angle of view. Thanks for the pics Bruce! Merry Christmas!

 

[TomB]

I think you have a very original looking and quite wells struck EF45 that has a light staple scratch on the obverse.

[JonM]

I see what looks to be moderate wear on the obverse, so 45?

[Bruceswar]

I think the coin could pass for XF 45 on a good day VF 35 on a bad one. Nice coin if you ask me. On a side note, the images are just a tab bit dark if you ask me.

 

 

Sheesh you guys are quick.

[Bruceswar]

As a side note I will let Michael reveal what he had the coin graded. It is noted on the holder.

[Zoins]

I think you have a very original looking and quite wells struck EF45 that has a light staple scratch on the obverse.

Would that scratch make it a problem/details coin?

[pendragon1998]

As a side note I will let Michael reveal what he had the coin graded. It is noted on the holder.

 

Well, in my defense, it is a puny coin

[Bruceswar]

As a side note I will let Michael reveal what he had the coin graded. It is noted on the holder.

 

Well, in my defense, it is a puny coin

 

I agree 100%. Lets just say it might be undergraded!!

[Bruceswar]

I think you have a very original looking and quite wells struck EF45 that has a light staple scratch on the obverse.

Would that scratch make it a problem/details coin?

 

I think the coin would holder.

[Zoins]

I think you have a very original looking and quite wells struck EF45 that has a light staple scratch on the obverse.

Would that scratch make it a problem/details coin?

I think the coin would holder.

Thanks. I'm still learning to recognize problems so this is useful.

[MikeInFL]

XF 42.5

[construct]

My first thought was 40, and I think I'll stick with that. The rims are nice and full. I often don't see that even in mid-circulated grades due to misalignment of dies. The top of the "3 is a little weak, and some of the stars lack inner detail. I toyed with 35, but the rims and legends are so bold that I moved back up to 40.

 

I guess I tend to grade trimes kind of hard.

[Bruceswar]

I guess I tend to grade trimes kind of hard.

 

Not as hard as the owner wrote down

[MunkyMan95]

Did Michael say F12 or something???

[BillJones]

The sharpness grade is AU, but the scratch and the punch mark in the shield drops it to EF-40 IMO.

 

These Type I trimes were made of an unusual alloy of 75% silver and 25% copper. These were for the first coins that the U.S. Government frankly admitted contained less value in the metal contained than their face value. One of the purposes of these coins was to redeem Spanish coinage, which was still legal tender until 1857. Depositors were bringing in heavily worn Spanish pieces and receiving more metal than they deposited, therefore making an uninteneded profit from the exchange. These pieces were intended to end that abuse.

 

The 75-25 alloy often results in unattractive toning. This piece looks to be original and is slightly better than average in that respect.

[RGT]

I've found that trimes tend to be either weakly struck around the rims or weakly struck in the center. Occasionally they will be weak all over or strongly struck all over. This one seems to be weak in the center as seen in the shield outlines that tend to run together and into the shield.

 

Circulated trimes are difficult to grade because of the small size and wide strike differences. I've seen coins slabbed as high as MS65 that had no more detail than this coin. I see what looks like luster under the crust on this piece. I see a few places that look like they may have some wear, but they also could be just strike weakness. It's impossible to tell without holding it in hand.

 

I will break from the crowd and call this coin AU55 just as a SWAG, but I wouldn't be surprised to see this in a low MS holder, again depending on what it looks like in hand. I've seen trimes with similar scratches in MS holders too. Remember, that scratch is really tiny, just like the coin.

 

Edits:

 

I noticed that Bill snuck in with an AU details assesment while I was reading and writing. He also pointed out the punch in the shield that I overlooked.

 

Let me also add some examples to illustrate some of what I wrote about strike. First is an 1852 from my registry gallery. This coin is graded MS62 by NGC and has typical strike weakness, though not as weak as Michael's coin.

 

1852 MS62

 

Here is an 1851 in NGC MS63 plastic that is a current Heritage offering. Take a look at the close-up image of the obverse and I think you will see what I mean about the strike in the shield outline.

 

1851 MS63

 

Finally, here's another current Heritage offering of an 1851-O in NGC MS64.

 

1851-O MS64

 

Personally, I wouldn't want any of these coins since I am looking for above average strikes and original surfaces. The 1852 of mine above was the first type 1 trime I ever bought. I got it on ebay several years ago before images were common and before I learned to appreciate strike on these coins. Still, it's the only one of the three that looks to me like it has original surfaces. I have since upgraded to a much better strike for my collection but can't get myself to part with this one yet.

 

[Bruceswar]

Did Michael say F12 or something???

 

Maybe Michael will tell us, maybe not. Does not matter in the scheme of things.

[pendragon1998]

Okay, okay...before I reveal my gross under-grade, let me say the following: (1) This is my first trime, which I acquired when I was just starting back into the hobby when my grading skills were weaker; (2) the thing is really tiny and my eyes were apparently missing some of the detail; (3) I try to be conservative in my grading, although not this conservative; and (4) although I've looked at the coin many times since, I've not taken the time to re-evaluate the grade.

 

My guess at the trime...er...time: VG-8

I don't often miss the boat by that much, but this time I did.

 

 

All that at the top was, I should note, in direct violation of EZ_E's statement, which I adopted into my coin forum rules of thumb:

 

09. "Never, ever make excuses. Your friends don't need them and your enemies won't believe you anyhow." -user EZ_E 09/17/2006

 

 

Seriously, thanks for all the great opinions...if anyone else hasn't graded the coin yet, by all means, please do. I love to read people's thoughts on my humble collection.

[TomB]

You got any raw coins to sell, Michael?

[pendragon1998]

- I know I really under-graded that puppy, but I swear, I'm much better at just about everything else, although I do tend to (purposefully) grade my coins a hair lower than I think the average person would. When I was a boy, I used to be much more liberal about my coin grading, but as I've matured, I'm able to be more honest with myself. I take more pleasure from, for example, being able to say that a coin is definitely AU rather than a hopeful MS - that kind of thing.

 

This philosophy applies to my birding as well. I've missed new lifer species on more than one occasion because I was only 95% certain of an ID and I only add them to my life list if I'm 100% certain.

[BillJones]

I'm not positive that NGC or PCGS would grade this coin if it were submitted to them. They could well call it "damaged." I had a 1796 half dime kicked back to me for very little more, and that's a coin for which the services make bigger allowances.

 

The punch marks on the shield and the one by the star probably bent the piece slightly. If you tested this piece on a flat surface, I think you would find that it's not flat. These coins are only about as thick as a stiff piece of paper, and it does not take much to damage them.

[Bruceswar]

Look at the bright side of things. This thread got your coin more accurately graded. Now I think you should ask about the SLQ as well. See what people think. At least you know now a much closer grade of the coin.

[MunkyMan95]

VG-8

 

Ouch.

[rexcat]

VG-8

 

Ouch.

 

Come on you're digging it Chad.

J/K

 

Great post you put up there RGT, you really need to do your homework before spending money on these little buggers.

 

I had a type one trime in my type set but sold it couple of years ago, it was purchased when I didn't know enough and am glad that it wasn’t a real expensive lesson. Both the type one and two are holes in my set yet, I’m hoping to find one of them this year.

[Amanda]

That's a nice trime, Michael.

 

I think it's EF.

 

 

Here's mine. It's an EF, too, although lightly cleaned.

 

ATS, the grade opinions on this coin (from admittedly poor pictures that I have since improved upon) went from VG-AU, so trimes seem to give many people fits.

 

-Amanda

[BillJones]

Hi Amanda.

 

That trime is about as nice as it gets for the EF grade. I'd rather have that one that some of the ugly so-called Mint State pieces I've seen. The weak strike in the center of the shield is quite normal. It gets much worse for the Type II pieces.

[RGT]

I'm not positive that NGC or PCGS would grade this coin if it were submitted to them. They could well call it "damaged." I had a 1796 half dime kicked back to me for very little more, and that's a coin for which the services make bigger allowances.

 

The punch marks on the shield and the one by the star probably bent the piece slightly. If you tested this piece on a flat surface, I think you would find that it's not flat. These coins are only about as thick as a stiff piece of paper, and it does not take much to damage them.

 

Bill, you are quite likely right. Michael could tell us if the piece were flat, but sometimes they can be staightened where it's difficult to tell it's been bent (for a slight bend).

 

Also, I looked at the image on my monitor at home and the coin doesn't look quite as nice as it looked at work. I see areas of wear and the luster doesn't really show like I thoght it did. I don't usually see this much difference between the two monitors. Still, I think it may have AU details with a weak strike on the shield.

[pendragon1998]

I was playing with my images again today and I thought I'd offer you a larger version against a bright background. I probably should have done this in the first place. Does this change anyone's grade?

 

 

 

[pendragon1998]

uploaded reverse

[Amanda]

Hi Amanda.

 

That trime is about as nice as it gets for the EF grade. I'd rather have that one that some of the ugly so-called Mint State pieces I've seen. The weak strike in the center of the shield is quite normal. It gets much worse for the Type II pieces.

 

Thanks, Mr. Jones.

 

This is one of my favorite coins.

 

-Amanda