1807 Capped Bust half, small stars: attribution confirmation, opinions please!

[James_OldeTowne]

MBA,

 

THANKS for the link! I will be following that one closely. It does appear to be a pretty nice coin....

[stman]

MBA,

 

THANKS for the link! I will be following that one closely. It does appear to be a pretty nice coin....

 

Ha, I was already following that one. I have an O-114 in an NGC "40" holder with a similar look. Actually I was thinking of selling it, and have decided to hold it for a while longer. Not because of this one on Heritage, but because I like it.

And it's a tougher variety that doesn't come available too often. Actually in the VF range they come available here, and there..... but seldom above that range.

 

IMO, this die-pairing, the O-114 usually comes the best struck out of the four for this year. Stars and eagles left wing facing are usually pretty well struck. While the central hair curls are mushy.

[Mozin]

I too noticed the current Heritage up for grabs. It looks to have many hairlines, but then, maybe it is on the plastic.

[MikeKing]

I too noticed the current Heritage up for grabs. It looks to have many hairlines, but then, maybe it is on the plastic.

 

You're right, loaded with hairlines. Amazing how much a photo can either hide or reveal. One set of photos (the top ones I believe) don't show the hairlines, but if you enlarge the lower photos, tons of hairlines. I wouldn't bid on that coin.

[James_OldeTowne]

I do not consider that level of hairlines offensive, as I don't believe they were imparted as the result of cleaning. On the contrary, most of the hairlines that I see that cause the coin to be described as "abraded" I think actually resulted from the regular inventory procedures of the early banking system! As part of the routine proper handling (for the time and purpose) of such coins, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Hairlines from cleaning - that usually bothers me, but these coins were handled for decades before being "retired" from circulation.

 

By the way, I'm not in the market for the Heritage coin (can't afford it even where it stands now), but already at this level, mine looks like it was a good deal!

[WinstonWare]

I agree James. I like your coin and think you got a good deal

[Mozin]

I do not consider that level of hairlines offensive, as I don't believe they were imparted as the result of cleaning. On the contrary, most of the hairlines that I see that cause the coin to be described as "abraded" I think actually resulted from the regular inventory procedures of the early banking system! As part of the routine proper handling (for the time and purpose) of such coins, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Hairlines from cleaning - that usually bothers me, but these coins were handled for decades before being "retired" from circulation.

 

By the way, I'm not in the market for the Heritage coin (can't afford it even where it stands now), but already at this level, mine looks like it was a good deal!

I can't believe you looked at the Heritage coin "in the holder" in the "blow up view", and feel that the hairlines are not offensive. If you use the Pan and Zoom, the hairlines are not as apparent, because the viewing window is so small.

 

The next bid on this coin is now at $2,990, including the juice, with a dozen people watching it.

[James_OldeTowne]

I do not consider that level of hairlines offensive, as I don't believe they were imparted as the result of cleaning. On the contrary, most of the hairlines that I see that cause the coin to be described as "abraded" I think actually resulted from the regular inventory procedures of the early banking system! As part of the routine proper handling (for the time and purpose) of such coins, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Hairlines from cleaning - that usually bothers me, but these coins were handled for decades before being "retired" from circulation.

 

By the way, I'm not in the market for the Heritage coin (can't afford it even where it stands now), but already at this level, mine looks like it was a good deal!

I can't believe you looked at the Heritage coin "in the holder" in the "blow up view", and feel that the hairlines are not offensive. If you use the Pan and Zoom, the hairlines are not as apparent, because the viewing window is so small.

 

The next bid on this coin is now at $2,990, including the juice, with a dozen people watching it.

Mozin, I looked at the images again, and I simply do not see any hairlines - certainly none that are "offensive"! Could you please provide a link to the exact image you're seeing?

 

Here's what I looked at:

 

http://images.heritagecoin.com/images/HNAI/75/428/428116011o.jpg

 

If you are referring to this one:

 

http://images.heritagecoin.com/images/HNAI/75/428/428116011a.jpg

 

... I believe it is impossible to tell whether those white streaks are on the coin or on the holder.

 

Certainly, without examining this coin in hand, and without a legitimate return policy (Heritage does not have one), this would be a sight-unseen purchase, but none of the provided images display to me anything that I would deem "offensive"!

 

After all, the coin is 199 years old.

 

James

[MikeKing]

I have to say, I was horrified by the blowup of that coin, because the first one was so misleading. You are so correct about it being a 'sight unseen' coin, as they have no return policy and no commitment to their descriptions either. Absolutely none. Maybe I'm ultrasensitive to this, having been terribly burned (by Heritage)(as I'm sure many of us have been) that I could be over-reacting to the hairline issue. I don't know. And most of my Bust halves, more or less, have hairlines, but not to the degree I think that this one does. In fact, I found that even with a loupe, multitude hairlines can go unseen until you examine a photograph that perchance was done with the light at such an angle that the hairlines suddenly made their appearance.

 

I recently bought a pcgs ms64 seated half from Anaconda. I photographed it and ONE out of my many photos showed a horrific population of hairlines that just were not visible otherwise. I returned the coin. In fact, they didn't believe me until I showed them the photo (they were convinced what I was looking at were the die polish lines). Needless to say...I'm not going to even say it...(If my mood suddenly changes when talking about Heritage or Anaconda, I think that says something...)

 

But you have an excellent point...are these 'hairlines' marks that are a consequence of the 'normal' handling of the coin vs wiping and cleaning. I'll have to go back and study the photos.

[MikeKing]

I blew up the photo, which lost resolution, to show the hairlines I'm talking about

 

and above the wing (shouldn't this be a 'protected' area?)

 

which to me appears like a vigorous wiping.

[MikeKing]

this is my 1808, only a year younger. Granted, it's been dipped and probably wiped as they did in the past, but there is a distinct lack of hairlines in comparison

 

I'd have made the photo bigger, but the resolution loss would be too great.

[MikeKing]

here's an 1811 (AU 55), a lower grade than the 1808 I put up, just for comparison. It may have a few hairlines, but not the plethora seen in the 1807 up for auction and getting major money on Heritage.

[MBA101]

If anyone is in the Dallas area, this item is open for viewing, for it is a floor auction. I would say that if this gets bid up at the end on the floor, then there are no hairlines. So we shall see in the end...

[James_OldeTowne]

I blew up the photo, which lost resolution, to show the hairlines I'm talking about and above the wing (shouldn't this be a 'protected' area?) which to me appears like a vigorous wiping.

The debate for me focuses on whether the hairlines are the result of wiping, or are the result of being slid across a countertop hundreds (perhaps) of times during the contemporary routine procedures at the mint, where they were obliged to inventory the coins in the vault on a regular basis. It seems to me that if someone intended to clean this coin, we would see a lot more hairlines than what is shown! Furthermore, it seems to me they would be going in multiple directions.

 

If indeed those hairlines are on the coin (and not the slab), they look to me like they are ALL in the identical parallel direction. Now, I find it quite unreasonable to believe that someone bent on cleaning up a coin to make it look brand new (shiny) is going to carefully wipe it in one direction only, and furthermore, only hit the highest or most accessible points. In fact, I think if you take a common silver coin and attempt to wipe it with a rag in such a way as to impart perfectly parallel hairlines like what's seen here, it would be difficult to do so.

 

The simpler explanation to me is that this coin was slid across a hard, flat surface that had abrasive particles on it. That would explain the universally parallel direction of the hairlines.

 

I hope I'm right. I realize (and often state) that it's a safe bet to assume that every AU or higher Bust half has been cleaned or had something done to it at some point, but if a so-called "defect" is the result of accepted mint practices, I personally don't count that against the coin.

[Mozin]

Thanks to MikeKing for his pictures showing why I am concerned about the hairlines on this coin. I have not been able to store pictures somewhere so that I can show them here. Tried many times with Comcast, but I have a Mac, so something does not compute.

 

CU provides storage for people like me on their own site. Works well for me.

 

On this Heritage coin, I am surprised at the high bidding by people, that more than likely, have not viewed the coin in hand. I agree it will be interesting to see if a floor bidder snags this one.

 

I invite you all to add to the Collector's Universe 1836 lettered edge Capped Bust Half informative picture thread I will start on Sunday 10/15/06. This is the first in the series covering all the years starting back from 1836. We are hoping for pictures of most Overton varieties.

[WinstonWare]

I have this one. I’m embarrassed to admit that I haven’t looked into its attribution. I was going to wait until I reach that chapter in my Overton book.

 

[stman]

The Heritage coin has probably had a wipe. Keep in mind though how huge the blow up images are though. I still have no doubt the hairlines are easy to see in person under light and a quick tilt of the coin. I also feel like someone mentioned earlier, if you can't see hairlines with an in person view, and the only way you really see them is on a blown up image on your computer, one might be putting too much emphasis on this. Everybody has a right to buy what they like though.

 

Furthermore, I don't think the bidding is high for this coin at less than 3K at the moment. If it's a true 50, I expect it to go much higher. It's a tough variety, that seldom comes available in this condition, from what I see, and what I'm able to purchase. In VF condition they come available once in a while and prices are

shooting up. I wouldn't assume if the price goes up that it has no hairlines.

People accept these for what they are sometimes, and dealers are also bidding these up. They really don't care about hairlines as much as they care whether they can sell it for a profit. Just my opinion on this so far.

 

I might see if I can have somebody take a peek at this one in person, just to find out for sure. I suspect the obverse luster is weak on this one though.

[Mozin]

Winstonwear,

 

You should post your 1836 CBH Sunday on the CU thread I will start. Some easy points for attribution are:

 

Obverse: There is a small tine attached to the right side of the loop on 6.

 

Reverse: "E" is far right of "D". There is a triple dentil above and slightly to the right of S2.

[James_OldeTowne]

I invite you all to add to the Collector's Universe 1836 lettered edge Capped Bust Half informative picture thread I will start on Sunday 10/15/06. This is the first in the series covering all the years starting back from 1836. We are hoping for pictures of most Overton varieties.

I no longer have an account across the street, and would not be able to post. But if someone wants to start a similar thread here, I have a lot of images of coins I've owned from every year (except 1796 and 1797).

[MikeKing]

..... Everybody has a right to buy what they like though.

 

.....

 

Wise guy

 

...

 

[stman]

..... Everybody has a right to buy what they like though.

 

.....

 

Wise guy

 

...

 

 

Hmm, I just posted and it seems to have vanished. Anyway, I don't know if you're

serious about the "wise guy" comment, and taking it as my being sarcastic. That certainly wasn't my intent, but I guess it gets taken that way sometimes. Maybe it comes naturally. Heh heh

 

Nice overdate, looks familiar. If I remember correctly it has some light hairlines in the obverse fields under the toning?

[MBA101]

I have this one. I’m embarrassed to admit that I haven’t looked into its attribution. I was going to wait until I reach that chapter in my Overton book.

 

 

O-101

[WinstonWare]

Dave, cool thanks . I didn't even get a chance to look yet

[Mozin]

I referred two of my very experienced Bust collecting buddies to look at the Heritage coin. These fellows have hundreds of Bust Halves in their collections, they know what they are doing. Neither of them liked the Heritage coin, and neither called it AU. In fact, they both thought it had XF45 details, but had been noticeably cleaned, net XF40. I agree with them. At PCGS, I think this coin would be bagged for cleaning.

 

Current next bid with juice is still ONLY $2,990.

[stman]

Mozin, notice I said if it's a true 50 I expected bidding to go higher. I really don't think it's a 50 either. But without seeing it I didn't want to make a blanket statement. I wouldn't be so sure pcgs would bag it. I say this over and over, and have seen it many times..... PCGS slabs cleaned Bust halves. In my opinion of course.

[MikeKing]

I like James' coin a lot better

[Mozin]

I invite you all to add to the Collector's Universe 1836 lettered edge Capped Bust Half informative picture thread I started on Sunday 10/15/06. This is the first in the series covering all the years starting back from 1836. We are hoping for pictures of most Overton varieties.

[Bruceswar]

Link?

[MikeKing]

linky

[Mozin]

MikeKing,

 

Thanks for providing the link. I have not figured out how to do links on this forum. I will try again.

 

CU 1836 Bust Half Dollar link