SLABS ARE THE WORST THING IN NUMISMATICS TO COME OUT!!

[Zoins]

One thing slabs have done is created an opportunity for more competition among dealers. Now any dolt can buy/sell coins to the public. Is this a good thing?

It can be for cherrypickers.

[Bruceswar]

Mark my whole point is this. If you are going to play this coin game and dump alot of money into. Whatever alot of money may be to a given person, they need to learn what they are buying. Slabs, doctoring, whatever it may be. People need to arm themselfs with knowledge. If they do not they will continue to get screwed over. I have no sympathy for those not willing to learn at all. Hell even my great grandma took a bit of time when she bought the few coins she did. Now I am not saying we all need to be experts at every aspect of coin grading, etc etc, but alittle information will go along way in this hobby. I encourage people to buy coins as they please, but when it comes time to sell, I do not want to see those same people cry when thier coins do not bring much. If you use slabs as a crutch then you will someone along the line get an inferior coin(S). As I quote often "I want to be the first line of defense and the last line of defense in all my coin purchases." I put the blame solely on my if I screw up.

[MarkFeld]

Bruce, thank you for that well reasoned explanation. It sounds as if we are in general agreement, the major difference being in how we allocate/see blame when an un-knowledgeable buyer (or seller, for that matter) is taken advantage of.

[Bruceswar]

Mark, I just like you do not like to see people getting screwed over. Weather it be buying or selling coins. But for the same token, if a person is not willing to learn from his mistakes, then I have no sympathy for them at that point. People would not be unknowing if they took just a bit of time with a book, internet, or some form of a learning material. Per say my parents do not collect coins at all, but just from being around them via me they know enough to get by. They will not know all the key dates, etc, but they will have a general idea of how to go about selling my coins should something happen to me. This can transfer over to anything in life. If you take your car into an Auto place cuz your engine is making a noise and they tell you.. "You are going to need new tires as this will fix your problem." Chances are you will seek a 2nd opinion. Why becuase you know just enough to know that would not cause the engine to make a noise. Simple things like that can be applied to coins as well.

[Zoins]

It seems to be a question of how much blame should go to the buyer vs. the seller. It's a continuum and people seem to be on different places on the spectrum.

[Bruceswar]

It seems to be a question of how much blame should go to the buyer vs. the seller. It's a continuum and people seem to be on different places on the spectrum.

 

Buyers need to take responsability for thier purchases. I do not know one person who has ever made 100% of thier purchases without knowing a thing about them. This translates into anything in life.. Toothpaste, cars, food, whatever. People do a bit of research when buying all those items, why not coins??

[MarkFeld]

Mark, I just like you do not like to see people getting screwed over. Weather it be buying or selling coins. But for the same token, if a person is not willing to learn from his mistakes, then I have no sympathy for them at that point. People would not be unknowing if they took just a bit of time with a book, internet, or some form of a learning material. Per say my parents do not collect coins at all, but just from being around them via me they know enough to get by. They will not know all the key dates, etc, but they will have a general idea of how to go about selling my coins should something happen to me. This can transfer over to anything in life. If you take your car into an Auto place cuz your engine is making a noise and they tell you.. "You are going to need new tires as this will fix your problem." Chances are you will seek a 2nd opinion. Why becuase you know just enough to know that would not cause the engine to make a noise. Simple things like that can be applied to coins as well.

Bruce, rather than hijack your thread, I have just started a new one, a hypothetical on the subject of a seller being taken advantage of/allocation of blame, which I'd like to hear your reply (among others) to. Thanks.

[jpo1965]

Bruce i'm basicly a newbe collector (only been at it for about a year & a1/2) morgans are my babies.Made some bad buy's at first because every thing i saw i wanted.But then i READ my redbook instead of just looking at the price (or worth) or worthlessness of coins.At first i thought CC in any year was kind of rare (Morgans) but look there it was "COINS FROM TREASURES AND HOARDS" and my 1884-cc gsa was common.To make a long story short YOU ARE RIGHT!!!! KNOWLEDGE IS KEY!!!! EBAY SLABERS SUCH AS SEGS ARE CROOKS (learned about them early in the game.read a post from guy that got burt by them) .I guess that's enougth of my tiraid.I'm still learning the ropes.Later JPO1965. Oh yes one other thing (some might not like this but here it goes) HOW MANY COINS DOES THE COINVAULT HAVE GRADED BUY YOU KNOW WHO.AND HOW MANY OF THEM MAKE PR-70?? AND WHAT IS THAT DOING TO THE PRICE OF MODERN COINS FOR THE FUTURE?

[Bruceswar]

SEGS is a legit company. Thier grading may not be to your liking, but they are not a self ebay slabber. SGS on the other hand is. Maybe that is what you meant.

[Boom]

 

You still beating that poor horse to death?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zoins]

I just wish some of the do-it-yourself slabs had clear rings

[Bruceswar]

You still beating that poor horse to death?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Boom the other thread I had was brought up, so this one was as well.

[JRocco]

Hey Bruce,

I have taken a break from these boards for a few and I just opened this thread seeing a gazillin pages of responses...and I now know why.

First off ~~ nice rant

I will not read any of the responses before I add this so as not to agree or disagree with anyone.

What you are saying is a really nice summary of the things I have been saying and feeling both here and ATS for quite a while now. It still makes me smirk (only to myself of course) when someone posts a coin that most say is a strong EF coin for example only to be TOLD that they are wrong because it is in XYZ holder and the plastic says its an AU55. If you can't grade a series, do a little homework first BEFORE you buy the coin or pay an honest numismatist...Mark comes to mind here... to screen a nice example for you.

TPG's have a place in our hobby...and their number one place is in authentication...PERIOD.

Funny how most of their authentication guarantees are their weakest guarantee..

 

What would make me appreciate the TPG's MUCH MUCH more than I do now would be if they dropped their numerical grade completely. They could still refer to a coin as EF or MS, but no more than that (bet they would screw that around too in order to guarantee multiple submissions for themselves...)

Let me determine what a coin is worth BASED ON THE COIN not the TPG's guess on it's numerical grade. I will stop here because I want to read what some of the other guys have said.

Good-- very needed---thread Bruce.

[MikeInFL]

Mark, I just like you do not like to see people getting screwed over. Weather it be buying or selling coins. But for the same token, if a person is not willing to learn from his mistakes, then I have no sympathy for them at that point. People would not be unknowing if they took just a bit of time with a book, internet, or some form of a learning material. Per say my parents do not collect coins at all, but just from being around them via me they know enough to get by. They will not know all the key dates, etc, but they will have a general idea of how to go about selling my coins should something happen to me. This can transfer over to anything in life. If you take your car into an Auto place cuz your engine is making a noise and they tell you.. "You are going to need new tires as this will fix your problem." Chances are you will seek a 2nd opinion. Why becuase you know just enough to know that would not cause the engine to make a noise. Simple things like that can be applied to coins as well.

 

Bruce, What if they do all the things you suggest and are still "screwed over"? Is it still their fault? It seems to me you blame the buyer in all cases. I, like Mark, believe in integrity on the seller's side. Perhaps this expectation is unrealistic, but that doesn't make those who take advantage of others any less wrong....Mike

[Bruceswar]

Mike if people do all the things I suggest, then the chances of the getting screwed over are less likely. Seller ethics are a huge factor as well. I am not letting the seller off the hook either, but I am saying a buyer needs to make himself aware of as much as possible or be prepared to lose money. Stocks come to mind. I do not play the stock market as I know very little about it. Should I ever decide to play the stocks, I would surely be doing as much research and homework as I could to make the best choice for me. If a seller takes advantage of a buyer, then that is wrong. If a buyer takes advantage of a seller then that is wrong as well. I just like to take responsability for my own purchases.

[Zoins]

I don't think Bruce would be a successful class action attorney

[Bruceswar]

I don't think Bruce would be a successful class action attorney

 

You might want to ask my sister... She is a lawyer, and lets say dinner can get heated..

[Zoins]

I don't think Bruce would be a successful class action attorney

You might want to ask my sister... She is a lawyer, and lets say dinner can get heated..

I don't think there's any question whether you'd stand up for the little guy, but you might be a good corporate defense counsel

[Bruceswar]

They can take all the corperate BS and put it where... I will stand up for the right thing all the time. Weather the big guy is right or the little guy. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Just because you burn your mouth on some Coffee at McDonalds, does not mean you should sue them for damages, because the cup did not say "Caution Hot". Common sense is not as common as it ought to be. But we are going off into a different issue all together. As for how this relates to slabs, lets just say the little guy needs to do his homework!

[jpo1965]

sorry bruce you are right i ment sgs the guy that got burnt posted his item for .99 cent the item was info saying that the owner of sgs was infact the seller on ebay which if true was grading well above true grade of coin and ripping or trying to rip off buyers

[MikeInFL]

They can take all the corperate BS and put it where... I will stand up for the right thing all the time. Weather the big guy is right or the little guy. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Just because you burn your mouth on some Coffee at McDonalds, does not mean you should sue them for damages, because the cup did not say "Caution Hot". Common sense is not as common as it ought to be. But we are going off into a different issue all together. As for how this relates to slabs, lets just say the little guy needs to do his homework!

 

A thought experiment to show the line between coroprate malfeasance, personal resposibility, and common sense may not be as clear as I get the impression you seem to think it is in the real world....

 

How about you buy a car part, that looks and is represented as being original equipment even having the "seal of approval of a genuine [insert car company name here] part". Subsequent to the sale you find out that the part, in fact, is a used part that has been repainted to look new. Who's fault is it? The buyer who should have done his homework, or the seller or alterer who misrepresented it. I believe the common-sense answer and the case law are fairly clear.

 

After you've answered the above, kindly substitute "used" with "AT", "car part" with "coin". Then substitute "a TPG" as the one giving the "seal of approval", and the "seller/alterer" as a "coin dealer/coin doctor". Does your opinion change? If so, what's the difference?

 

Now, do the same type substitution with your McDonalds example. Again, how does your opinion change?

 

IMO, the only difference between these examples is what is considered reasonable expectation on what's being sold by the seller. The line is a fine one, and it is interesting that in the first and last examples lawsuits seem to be the rule, yet in the second not a thing in the world happens.

 

Some food for thought...Mike

[Bruceswar]

Retail does not compute to collectables. Now had the car part been vintage, then still the buyer of the part should know what he or she is buying. IF we buy a vintage guitar from a person off the street as all original, but yet the guitar has been altered, we must take our lumps. Full disclosre by a seller is always good, and should be a starting point for a buyer. Just becuase Slab XYZ says MS 65, does that automatically mean it is MS 65? I think not. The buyer should examine the coin first to see if he or she agrees with the grade. In your situation the seller was practicing bad business, and the buyer should take some blame for not asking a few more questions. I have yet to see a used car part that looks "new" They can be made to look new again, but there will always be signs of use. Generally speaking with collectibles, there is a buyer with an interest in them. So why should this buyer not take the time for his so called hobby to do a bit of research. Most people WANT collectables, where as retail items, such as car parts are NEEDS.(excluding vintage) Lets turn your situation around and say person X walks into a car dealership with a trockload of what looks be 100% original parts, but in fact all came from the junk . The dealer buys the parts as new. Did the seller get a rip? YES! Was he wrong? YES! Now what the dealer does with these parts will show his ethics. AT coins would be comparable to a refinished car. While the both may look the same, they are indeed very different. If a vintage car collector cannot tell the difference, then they shoulld stay away or be prepare to loose money. Same applies to buying coins with "color". Are there crooks out there? YES Are they wrong? YES! Coins are a hobby, with many ways to enjoy them. Being it is a hobby and not a need, usally people like to learn about there hobby before putting alot of money into it. The ones who blindly dump money into coins will be in for a rude awakening should they decide to sell.

[MikeInFL]

Retail does not compute to collectables.

 

Apparently you make the distinction between a "hobby" (coins) and a "retail need" (car parts) -- it is apparent in this statement and again in your closing remarks. However, the law does not, to the best of my knowledge, make that distinction. My point is that the ethics on the seller's part and the expectation on the buyers part are the same, regardless. If you blame the buyer of an AT coin for not doing his reasearch, you must also blame the one who was fooled by the used part sold as new, and the reason they are buying it (hobby -vs- need) is not material. As you said earlier, right is right, and wrong is wrong.

 

I have yet to see a used car part that looks "new"

 

The idea was to run with the tought experiment, not debase the validity of it. Furthermore, I would suggest you are naive concerning the games that are played in the car part business. Lastly, and the point I was trying to make, if someone substitues a new part for a used part, they have broken the law. However, in the second example, substituting an AT coin for a NT coin, nobody is prosecuted, and apparently no law is broken. Why is that?

 

So why should this buyer not take the time for his so called hobby to do a bit of research.

 

They should. However, no matter the amount of reasearch or education, the buyer can be fooled by the unscupulous seller, whether that be car parts, coins, or real estate. Simply saying "buyer beware" is not sufficient. There are reasons why fraud is illegal, and these reasons should extend into the coin business.

 

All IMHO and respectfully submitted...Mike

[Bruceswar]

Weather the law see's the 2 as different is a good point, but we all know the 2 are totally different. There are bad sellers in both industries. In closing niether the buyer nor the seller should take 100% of the blame, but a buyer better be as best prepared as possible.