SLABS ARE THE WORST THING IN NUMISMATICS TO COME OUT!!

[Bruceswar]

Slabs have done nothing good for the Hobby! They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them. Mear SHEEP!

 

I recently read an article in one of the coin magazines that said "Some experts have learned to grade". That should not be SOME it should be every last one of us here and all the others collecting coins.

 

With the introduction of slabs people are buying coins they would have never bought before since they can Trust the TPG's Grading and look up a price via a price guide or Auction Archives. I see people buying all sorts of early proofs and knowing little info on the strinking, aspects or other things about the coin. All they know is they like it and it s a proof, maybe even a toned one. One grade point can make a coin go from $500.00 to $5,000.00 just because of the plastic it is in.

 

There are thousands of "sheep" buying slabs and not the coins! Now we even have sellers hyping OGH's like the coins should be undergraded and a lock for an upgrade! Why not learn to grade yourself and not worry about whose holder it is in? Take whatever the TPG says cover it up... and if you cannot tell the grade on the coin the don't buy it as you don't know enough to.

 

Takes us back before the Pre TPG era and coins were bought and sold on merits not what some slab says. I recently took a look at the registry, which in most part is a joke, unless you just want to show off your coins. I like that aspect of it but a set with no Pictures is pointless and a waste, (IMHO).

 

I can understand people who want the best coins they can afford and to have the greatest sets, which I cannot fault them on but nowadays all you need is money and not knowledge! I have also seen registry sets with coins and photos and there are some coins in the set that are clearly wrongfully graded!

 

The crackout game is a joke as well, since after all its the same coin no matter what number they put on the holder. Coin grading has got a bit tighter as of late on certain series' but it should not matter how the TPG's are grading at a certain period of time.

 

Slabs have also been a huge part in ruining many coins original skins, by dipping in hopes of an upgrade. Think of all the early American coins dipped and stripped. Before a slab it would not matter if it got to the next level as a dealer could sell the coins on its merits with the original skin on it. Dipped out coins suck.

 

If you want to argue the fact that Slabs have made coin buyer safer... thats Nonsense! You can still get a lot of [embarrassing lack of self control] in slabs and not only the lesser slabs! Just take a look at Ebay and see all the coins being sold outside of slabs that have problems! Slabbing has not stopped the problem coins from being sold to unsuspecting buyers, the majority of which do not know any better.

 

You say slabs offer a good protection and keep coins from getting hurt? It seems a great many coins survived many years without slabs. All slabs have done is made us less carefull when holding coins. If you drop a slab its ok since it is a plastic, unless it a new ANACS slab, then it might crack.

 

Now take away the slab and I bet you are much more careful with the coin. If someone would be kind enough to tell one good thing that has come out of a slab infested coin market please let me know. Until then, read books, learn to grade and know what you buy before you waste your hard earned money. Thanks and debate away!

[Brotherman]

Ummm Bruce... sir, umm - you dropped your sign...er

never mind, I'll hold it for you

 

Hays

[Bruceswar]

HAHA! I did... but what I speak is the truth. What do you think?

[Brotherman]

Yes, I have to agree with you for the most part. Now that I’m learning a little bit

I tend to want to look at raw coins more. TPGs do have one good point –

they encourage entry into this hobby. They are certainly not perfect and

I completely agree that new people need to get up to speed on grading

and recognizing problem coins, however new hobbyists should only buy NGC

or PCGS coins because at least there is some sort of protection.

I think a lot of people tend to forget that TPGs are in the business to

MAKE money – not just grade it!! I think if you keep that in mind there

decisions start making a little sense.

 

Hays

[Bruceswar]

Yes, I have to agree with you for the most part. Now that I’m learning a little bit

I tend to want to look at raw coins more. TPGs do have one good point –

they encourage entry into this hobby. They are certainly not perfect and

I completely agree that new people need to get up to speed on grading

and recognizing problem coins, however new hobbyists should only buy NGC

or PCGS coins because at least there is some sort of protection.

I think a lot of people tend to forget that TPGs are in the business to

MAKE money – not just grade it!! I think if you keep that in mind there

decisions start making a little sense.

 

Hays

 

100% correct about this is a money making business and not just mearly a coin grading service. New people should not only buy PCGS and NGC... They need to learn to grade any coin they intend to buy or collect for pocket change one. That will solve everything!

[Brotherman]

Yes, I have to agree with you for the most part. Now that I’m learning a little bit

I tend to want to look at raw coins more. TPGs do have one good point –

they encourage entry into this hobby. They are certainly not perfect and

I completely agree that new people need to get up to speed on grading

and recognizing problem coins, however new hobbyists should only buy NGC

or PCGS coins because at least there is some sort of protection.

I think a lot of people tend to forget that TPGs are in the business to

MAKE money – not just grade it!! I think if you keep that in mind there

decisions start making a little sense.

 

Hays

 

100% correct about this is a money making business and not just mearly a coin grading service. New people should not only buy PCGS and NGC... They need to learn to grade any coin they intend to buy or collect for pocket change one. That will solve everything!

 

True enough, as I said newbies (myself included) need to learn how to

grade coins. The reality is that it takes a LONG time to learn how to do that!

I’m still working on learning to grade circulated Walking liberty halves –

haven’t even begun looking at the MS ones! Since it takes so long to learn

this skill, the TPGs do offer a little protection for the newbie – AND newbies

are going to buy coins right from the start. Who’s going to wait years

learning everything they need to know before the first purchase is made? If

new people did that most would lose interest long before they buy the first

coin.

I think most new people think that the TPGs are perfect – we envision teams

of scientists carefully inspecting our coins like they do paintings in a museum

on the Discovery Channel. Some of us get more serious about the hobby

and begin looking for information to help us along. That’s how I ended up

here. Other new people are drawn to the market just because it’s hot right now.

I think there will be an adjustment, the market can’t stay hot forever. When

that happens I believe a lot of folks will wish that they had learned how to

grade coins – I have a feeling their collections won’t produce the same kind

of dollars they paid for them.

 

Hays

[Bruceswar]

Yes, I have to agree with you for the most part. Now that I’m learning a little bit

I tend to want to look at raw coins more. TPGs do have one good point –

they encourage entry into this hobby. They are certainly not perfect and

I completely agree that new people need to get up to speed on grading

and recognizing problem coins, however new hobbyists should only buy NGC

or PCGS coins because at least there is some sort of protection.

I think a lot of people tend to forget that TPGs are in the business to

MAKE money – not just grade it!! I think if you keep that in mind there

decisions start making a little sense.

 

Hays

 

100% correct about this is a money making business and not just mearly a coin grading service. New people should not only buy PCGS and NGC... They need to learn to grade any coin they intend to buy or collect for pocket change one. That will solve everything!

 

True enough, as I said newbies (myself included) need to learn how to

grade coins. The reality is that it takes a LONG time to learn how to do that!

I’m still working on learning to grade circulated Walking liberty halves –

haven’t even begun looking at the MS ones! Since it takes so long to learn

this skill, the TPGs do offer a little protection for the newbie – AND newbies

are going to buy coins right from the start. Who’s going to wait years

learning everything they need to know before the first purchase is made? If

new people did that most would lose interest long before they buy the first

coin.

I think most new people think that the TPGs are perfect – we envision teams

of scientists carefully inspecting our coins like they do paintings in a museum

on the Discovery Channel. Some of us get more serious about the hobby

and begin looking for information to help us along. That’s how I ended up

here. Other new people are drawn to the market just because it’s hot right now.

I think there will be an adjustment, the market can’t stay hot forever. When

that happens I believe a lot of folks will wish that they had learned how to

grade coins – I have a feeling their collections won’t produce the same kind

of dollars they paid for them.

 

Hays

 

In that case buy small coins you can count as a loss and learn as you go. Learn one series well and go from there.

[Regis44]

QUOTE: "If someone would be kind enough to tell one good thing that has come out of a slab infested coin market please let me know. "

 

 

 

Inheritance preservation.

 

More than once I've seen local dealers jump for joy when sombody calls for appointment about pricing and buying their inherited coins. Every couple weeks sombody posts "what is my father's coins worth?". Top TPG's improve the chance of families getting better than melt price in these situations.

 

That is about the ONLY reason that I submit or buy slabbed coins. I'll never get all my coins slabbed but, all expensive ones for sure, some sets, and a few representative others (to help me with my grading skills).

 

I can only imagine what will happen to my violin & bow collection even though I've written some detailed procedures. There is no such thing as certification or top TPG's in that area.

 

My

[Bruceswar]

QUOTE: "If someone would be kind enough to tell one good thing that has come out of a slab infested coin market please let me know. "

 

 

 

Inheritance preservation.

 

More than once I've seen local dealers jump for joy when sombody calls for appointment about pricing and buying their inherited coins. Every couple weeks sombody posts "what is my father's coins worth?". Top TPG's improve the chance of families getting better than melt price in these situations.

 

That is about the ONLY reason that I submit or buy slabbed coins. I'll never get all my coins slabbed but, all expensive ones for sure, some sets, and a few representative others (to help me with my grading skills).

 

I can only imagine what will happen to my violin & bow collection even though I've written some detailed procedures. There is no such thing as certification or top TPG's in that area.

 

My

 

You bring in a whole nother aspect. Coin dealers who take advantage of people who inherit coins. Slabs I don't even think would help much since if it is not PCGS they can claim it as lesser.

[zrlevin]

The major upside to slabs that I see is guarenteed authenticity. I would never buy a very expensive coin (to me any way) raw from anyone but a well known and trusted dealer, especially something like a trade dollar. I collect for type, so I don't know any series extremely well, and some of them I don't know well enough to pick out a counterfeit.

 

Zach

[TomB]

Wow. There are two thoughts I would like to put out before I write anything else and these are that you have made some very valid points and also that I disagree with the majority of what you wrote.

 

Before I address your points, I will make the comment that reading your post would make me believe, if I didn't already know, that you entered the field of numismatics after the troika of ANACS-PCGS-NGC were established, otherwise some of what you wrote simply wouldn't appear here. I'll also state that I have read no one else's posts in this thread so that my ideas won't be mingled with them.

 

I will simply quote some of your points and will comment on them, because this seems easier than any other categorization method.

 

They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them.

I think this statement is the epitome of the dual nature of your post in that you are wildly missing the overall picture with the comment that slabs have created crooks without acknowledging the pervasive presence of crooks in the raw coin market prior to certification, but then you make an excellent point about the crutch that is third-party grading for many individuals.

 

every last one of us here and all the others collecting coins

I agree with this statement completely with respect to knowing how to grade coins, but there was no era that I am aware of where the general collecting populace knew how to grade and spot alterations.

 

One grade point can make a coin go from $500.00 to $5,000.00 just because of the plastic it is in.

This is absolutely correct and I couldn't agree more. Folks should know what they are doing and why they are doing it.

 

Why not learn to grade yourself and not worry about whose holder it is in?

Outstanding statement!

 

Takes us back before the Pre TPG era and coins were bought and sold on merits not what some slab says.

This statement alone would tell me that you were not around before the TPGs were popular. Coin collecting was a minefield and folks lost enormous sums and/or percentages of money in buying altered, counterfeit, overgraded, etc...pieces that were very widespread in the market. Your statement is a romanticized version of an era that I am not aware existed for the masses or hobby as a whole, at least not at a time where there were more than a handful of collectors.

 

I can understand people who want the best coins they can afford and to have the greatest sets, which I cannot fault them on but nowadays all you need is money and not knowledge!

This has likely always been true, to a degree at least.

 

Slabs have also been a huge part in ruining many coins original skins, by dipping in hopes of an upgrade.

This is one of the great sins of the TPGs that is not often enough spoken about or debated.

 

If you want to argue the fact that Slabs have made coin buyer safer... thats Nonsense!

That statement is, truthfully, either ridiculous or ignorant, and you don't give any real examples or facts to help the argument. The simple fact that the ANACS-PCGS-NGC troika filter out the vast majority of counterfeit coins means you have to come much better prepared on your point or risk ridicule of it.

 

Slabbing has not stopped the problem coins from being sold to unsuspecting buyers, the majority of which do not know any better.

This is true, but now we are talking about making a better collector through knowledge and responsibility. That has always been an issue.

 

read books, learn to grade and know what you buy before you waste your hard earned money

This is very true.

 

In my opinion, it is unfortunate that you wrote your thread in a haphazzard manner loaded with emotion instead of analytically disecting the issue. If you had done the latter, you may have presented a cohesive argument, but doing the former invites roasting without discourse.

[James_OldeTowne]

The best and most gratifying service offered by TPGs is a guarantee of authenticity. Although I feel I've gained a lot of experience over the years recognizing counterfeit and altered coins, when I need to buy a 1916-D, or an 1877, or $10 Indian, certification adds a tremendous value to the transaction.

 

I like the physical protection slabs can offer, though of course I realize that the same protection can be had in other ways and at a much lower price than the cost of certification.

 

The value of third-party grades is definitely overrated. The TPG is a nice place to start, but I find it very insulting when a dealer behaves as if an NGC grade, or a PCGS grade, or an SGS grade is quoted as the word of God. And as you imply, when the lesser-informed think of such grades in that manner, then you have the insane prices that are in place today for coins.

 

More than anything else, I completely agree with the absurdity of a $5.00 coin being worth $5000 if blessed with a certain certified grade. That is the epitome of stupidity in this hobby.

 

James

[Allan Ong]

More than anything else, I completely agree with then absurdity of a $5.00 coin being worth $5000 if blessed with a certain certified grade. That is the epitome of stupidity in this hobby.

James

 

Or a coin with a face value of $0.05 being worth over $1M... (ignore for a moment the fact that there are only 5 in existence )

[MunkyMan95]

More than anything else, I completely agree with then absurdity of a $5.00 coin being worth $5000 if blessed with a certain certified grade. That is the epitome of stupidity in this hobby.

James

 

Or a coin with a face value of $0.05 being worth over $1M... (ignore for a moment the fact that there are only 5 in existence )

 

Or a coin with a face value of $0.05, being worth $0.06 because of the plastic. 1986-P Jefferson AU58. $0.06 according to NumisMedia.

[Wihlborg]

Or a coin with a face value of $0.05, being worth $0.06 because of the plastic. 1986-P Jefferson AU58. $0.06 according to NumisMedia.

 

 

John

[MunkyMan95]

Or a coin with a face value of $0.05, being worth $0.06 because of the plastic. 1986-P Jefferson AU58. $0.06 according to NumisMedia.

 

 

John

 

Hey, it's a pop 1 coin, was a freebie, and I am glad to own it!

[Wihlborg]

Hey, it's a pop 1 coin, was a freebie, and I am glad to own it!

 

Oh, well, if its a pop one and was free I guess that changes everything!

 

I'm just teasing you Chad.

 

I was not, and am not now ridiculing you or your coin. I do however find the fact that someone paid to have a coin worth .06 graded ridiculous.

 

John

[Bruceswar]

Wow. There are two thoughts I would like to put out before I write anything else and these are that you have made some very valid points and also that I disagree with the majority of what you wrote.

 

Before I address your points, I will make the comment that reading your post would make me believe, if I didn't already know, that you entered the field of numismatics after the troika of ANACS-PCGS-NGC were established, otherwise some of what you wrote simply wouldn't appear here. I'll also state that I have read no one else's posts in this thread so that my ideas won't be mingled with them.

 

I will simply quote some of your points and will comment on them, because this seems easier than any other categorization method.

 

They have created crooks(SGS), thousands of people who can't grade and rely on what the slab tells them.

I think this statement is the epitome of the dual nature of your post in that you are wildly missing the overall picture with the comment that slabs have created crooks without acknowledging the pervasive presence of crooks in the raw coin market prior to certification, but then you make an excellent point about the crutch that is third-party grading for many individuals.

 

every last one of us here and all the others collecting coins

I agree with this statement completely with respect to knowing how to grade coins, but there was no era that I am aware of where the general collecting populace knew how to grade and spot alterations.

 

One grade point can make a coin go from $500.00 to $5,000.00 just because of the plastic it is in.

This is absolutely correct and I couldn't agree more. Folks should know what they are doing and why they are doing it.

 

Why not learn to grade yourself and not worry about whose holder it is in?

Outstanding statement!

 

Takes us back before the Pre TPG era and coins were bought and sold on merits not what some slab says.

This statement alone would tell me that you were not around before the TPGs were popular. Coin collecting was a minefield and folks lost enormous sums and/or percentages of money in buying altered, counterfeit, overgraded, etc...pieces that were very widespread in the market. Your statement is a romanticized version of an era that I am not aware existed for the masses or hobby as a whole, at least not at a time where there were more than a handful of collectors.

 

I can understand people who want the best coins they can afford and to have the greatest sets, which I cannot fault them on but nowadays all you need is money and not knowledge!

This has likely always been true, to a degree at least.

 

Slabs have also been a huge part in ruining many coins original skins, by dipping in hopes of an upgrade.

This is one of the great sins of the TPGs that is not often enough spoken about or debated.

 

If you want to argue the fact that Slabs have made coin buyer safer... thats Nonsense!

That statement is, truthfully, either ridiculous or ignorant, and you don't give any real examples or facts to help the argument. The simple fact that the ANACS-PCGS-NGC troika filter out the vast majority of counterfeit coins means you have to come much better prepared on your point or risk ridicule of it.

 

Slabbing has not stopped the problem coins from being sold to unsuspecting buyers, the majority of which do not know any better.

This is true, but now we are talking about making a better collector through knowledge and responsibility. That has always been an issue.

 

read books, learn to grade and know what you buy before you waste your hard earned money

This is very true.

 

In my opinion, it is unfortunate that you wrote your thread in a haphazzard manner loaded with emotion instead of analytically disecting the issue. If you had done the latter, you may have presented a cohesive argument, but doing the former invites roasting without discourse.

 

 

Tom I respect your opinions and hold them in high regaurd. When I first decided to make this post I knew it was not going to go over well. I can respect the fact that we dissagree to a degree.

 

Crooks were not solely created by slabs they were just helped along. They have been here and always will be.

 

I will say it again gain , knowledge first coins later. If the masses want to go the other way they will contitue to be screwed.

 

$5.00 out of the slab vs a $500.00 in the slab. I think I will save my money and buy the better bargin. I for one cannot easily tell an MS 69 from an MS 70 and I would be willing to bet many others could not as well. Why pat for something you cannot determine what it is.

 

The era that I paint was one with many faults like today's market place. But then that takes us back to square one. Buy the book before the coin or be prepared to lose your money fast.

 

Tom you have alot of first hand knowledge in knowing how hard it is to find undipped oringal early American coins. Slabs have played a big role in this due to upgrades. This makes me think of your Bust dollar post and how ugly that coin now looks.

 

While I will admit slabs have made entering the hobby a bit less fearfull for some, they should not be the ONLY coins a new collector should buy. In fact they should not be buying coins with the knowledge needed, unless they are prepared to take a full loss. All slabs have done is create the vise that people are getting what they pay for and many times this is not the case. Overgraded coins, and problem coins do exist in slabs. They buyer needs to be aware that this is true.

 

I fully expected that I would be roasted and I was ready for it. You unlike some others have made some good points. You wanted to debate more than just sling mud. The fact of the matter is people need to learn before they buy and not be buying slab numbers. I think we can agree there. Thanks for your opinions.

[Bruceswar]

More than anything else, I completely agree with then absurdity of a $5.00 coin being worth $5000 if blessed with a certain certified grade. That is the epitome of stupidity in this hobby.

James

 

Or a coin with a face value of $0.05 being worth over $1M... (ignore for a moment the fact that there are only 5 in existence )

 

Those coins would be just fine without being in a slab.

[Bruceswar]

The major upside to slabs that I see is guarenteed authenticity. I would never buy a very expensive coin (to me any way) raw from anyone but a well known and trusted dealer, especially something like a trade dollar. I collect for type, so I don't know any series extremely well, and some of them I don't know well enough to pick out a counterfeit.

 

Zach

 

You bring up authenticity, which is by far the best aspect of slab and that only pretains to some companies. Trade dollars have been so widely counterfeit it makes one really take a good look when buying one. If you collect for type that makes buying coins difficult at times, but reguardless of what you know or don't know look at each purchase as money are playing with and not investing.

[Bruceswar]

The best and most gratifying service offered by TPGs is a guarantee of authenticity. Although I feel I've gained a lot of experience over the years recognizing counterfeit and altered coins, when I need to buy a 1916-D, or an 1877, or $10 Indian, certification adds a tremendous value to the transaction.

 

I like the physical protection slabs can offer, though of course I realize that the same protection can be had in other ways and at a much lower price than the cost of certification.

 

The value of third-party grades is definitely overrated. The TPG is a nice place to start, but I find it very insulting when a dealer behaves as if an NGC grade, or a PCGS grade, or an SGS grade is quoted as the word of God. And as you imply, when the lesser-informed think of such grades in that manner, then you have the insane prices that are in place today for coins.

 

More than anything else, I completely agree with the absurdity of a $5.00 coin being worth $5000 if blessed with a certain certified grade. That is the epitome of stupidity in this hobby.

 

James

 

James I think we are in agreement here. Authenticity is about the only thing one can argue in the case of a slab for the simple fact a great many of us cannot pick out fake coins 100% of the time, myself included.

[TomB]

I think your underlying message, if I interpret your post correctly, is one of building the better collector. In that case, I agree wholeheartedly with many of the points you bring up. However, unless and until one builds the better collector, it wont matter if one buys slabs, raw coins, plays the metals market or buys futures in a coin fund, the basic parameters will not change. The buyer (collector) must take ultimate responsibility for the purchase(s). In that type of world, where the buyer has taken the time to become educated about the purchase, the problems that you have attributed to slabs melt away, as do most of the problems associated with raw coinage. Unfortunately, my amateur view of human nature tells me that most collectors will not take the ultimate responsibility for their economic welfare seriously, and the better collector model will not come to fruition.

[Bruceswar]

I think your underlying message, if I interpret your post correctly, is one of building the better collector. In that case, I agree wholeheartedly with many of the points you bring up. However, unless and until one builds the better collector, it wont matter if one buys slabs, raw coins, plays the metals market or buys futures in a coin fund, the basic parameters will not change. The buyer (collector) must take ultimate responsibility for the purchase(s). In that type of world, where the buyer has taken the time to become educated about the purchase, the problems that you have attributed to slabs melt away, as do most of the problems associated with raw coinage. Unfortunately, my amateur view of human nature tells me that most collectors will not take the ultimate responsibility for their economic welfare seriously, and the better collector model will not come to fruition.

 

Correct! That is what I am after! Your last statment is very true while it should not be. This does not only translate into coins, but into any walk of life. Tom I for one think you have helped build a better collector out of me and many others on this board. Thanks for the insight you always bring. You are highly respected around here.

 

Slabs or raw coins alike the collector should still take responability for his or her own purchases. Someday this line of thinking might be more widespread!

[James_OldeTowne]

((( James I think we are in agreement here. )))

 

Actually, I agree with most of what you state, though I don't think slabs are the "worst" thing in numismatics - hype is. Of course, some might argue that the hype wouldn't be possible without slabs, but I really do think the most damaging aspect of numismatics is the wild hype of such companies as Heritage. But that's a whole other issue.

 

I completely agree with the notion that certification has made collectors dumber - and coin doctors and other scam-artists smarter. Personally, I WOULD prefer the coin world as it was in the 1960s and 1970s before slabs. Sure, I might buy a cr&ppy coin sometimes and lose a few bucks here and there, but the HYPE did not exist then as it does now, and the good coins that were available could be had for much, much less money than is the case today.

 

I would gladly take a few messed-up coins in my collection if I could assemble that collection for 1/20 of what it costs today (even taking inflation into account).

 

James

[Bruceswar]

James you bring up hype which like you said can be a direct spinoff of the TPG's. Just take a look at "First Strike" which is a joke if you ask me. Hype is a very valid point as well.

 

I could have worded my heading a bit better, but I did not change it for the mere fact of looking like I was changing my stance.

 

I too would also go back the 70's and 60's in a heartbeat. But such is not the case and we cannot. We must enjoy the coin market for what it is.

 

Knowledge then, knowledge now. Its all the same. Use it to your advantage.

[EZ_E]

 

 

I collected coins in the '70's as a kid. I could grade circulated coins but uncirculated was uncirculated to me. Man, I wish that I could relive that era and have my current budget and grading skills!

 

There was no multi-thousand dollar jump for one grade back then. Sure, there would be a premium for a PQ coin but nothing like we see today.

 

How many overgraded coins have you seen that were given as a reward to well known or heavy submitters? How many rare coins have you seen that were bumped a grade just because of its scarcity?

 

This is a game that I would certainly prefer not to play.

 

I break most of my coins out of their holders anyway so slabs are more of a nuisance to me. As long as you find a reputable dealer or are able to pick and grade yourself, I, too, find slabs totally unnecessary.

 

Sure, there are advantages to them such as authentication. It also gives one more confidence when buying sight unseen from a seller that you're not acquanted with.

 

But, as already mentioned, the slab's grade is no guarantee that the coin is that which it says it is.

 

I was working on a circulated set of Mercury dimes 3 years back so I learned how to grade them pretty accurately. I'll never forget two PCGS coins that I saw: one was an accurately graded F-12 Merc, the other was a 16 D graded F-12 that was just a VG. Same series, same coins but different standards! What gives?! This whole game is BS for knowledgeable collectors.

 

And, I too have perused the NGC registry USA type sets. Most have no images at all which makes their entries completely worthless to all except the owner. Why even bother? It provides little documentation of their set, just a number that becomes irrelevant once cracked out of the slab. And, as you already mentioned, Bruce, there are many butt-ugly coins given high grades.

 

Plus the point system for the registry is so arbitrary that it borders on the ridiculous. 2005 MS69 SMS coins are receiving points from 1200-2000. This far exceeds many scarce, 19th century coins whose value far exceeds these over-rated moderns.

 

I just don't like all the twists and turns that this modern, manipulated market throws at us!

 

I rented a table at one coin show. There was a dealer across from me that had no idea how to grade. He had bought a roll of Morgans "MS63 or better. He asked me to look at them. There were 4 no grades, one or two 64's and the rest 63 or below. I showed him the no grades and said not to bother sending them in to be graded. But, he insisted upon it anyway. I just don't get how people like this can survive because it is really tough to make a profit in the coin game. But, crack outs and upgrades is a major source of income for many.

 

Some may buy raw, eye-appealing coins at a reasonable price, get them slabbed and then make a bundle on ebay, etc. That's fine. It's a free market but think how much nicer it would be if there weren't any darned slabs and we could just buy the coin on its own merits and not because of some blessing giving by a TPGS.

 

OK, I'll pass this sign on to another.....

[sakorick]

Well, I agree with most posters and would like to add my .02$ I had a 1884cc in a PCI slab that is graded MS64 and it really is IMHO. I put it up on Ebay and the highest bid I got in 7 days was 151 dollars. People have now become paranoid and won't bid on anything except NGC and PCGS coins. I had a beautiful 1881CC MS63 slabbed NGC coin and never got a bid on it! Go figure. Maybe it's a bad market, Arabs, Stock market, Oil prices.....silver and gold keeps showing an up trend and PCGS hasn't many green up ticks at least in Morgans. OBTW, I have sold nearly 1000 coins, all Silver Dollars, on Ebay and have a 100% feedback rating and have never had a coin returned. The ultra rare coins are doing OK, but the mid graded slabbed coins are in very very poor demand. I will never have another coin slabbed unless there is a cleaning issue.....I bought a raw 1921 Peace that looked MS63 easy....sent it off to NGC....got it back ungraded....cleaned. This dealer is the most popular coin dealer on Ebay. Sure, I got my money back and in this case, having it graded paid off. The hobby is getting unfun and this is the same reason I quit some 25 years ago.....thinking about ditching the hobby again. Too many cheaters, too much untrust, too much slabbing....I'm thinking of just buying mint coins from now on. Regards, Rick.

 

passed.

[EZ_E]

The reality is that it takes a LONG time to learn how to do that!

 

Actually, it doesn't. I took an ANA coin grading seminar which helped me tremendously. There are also videos which accomplish the same thing, not to mention all of the books. Just take the time to do your homework.

 

This won't mean that you'll be a coin grading guru overnight but it will certainly give one the foundational skills to do so.

 

Once you obtain these skills then don't compromise on your purchases. I have before and I always regret it!

[Bruceswar]

Well, I agree with most posters and would like to add my .02$ I had a 1884cc in a PCI slab that is graded MS64 and it really is IMHO. I put it up on Ebay and the highest bid I got in 7 days was 151 dollars. People have now become paranoid and won't bid on anything except NGC and PCGS coins. I had a beautiful 1881CC MS63 slabbed NGC coin and never got a bid on it! Go figure. Maybe it's a bad market, Arabs, Stock market, Oil prices.....silver and gold keeps showing an up trend and PCGS hasn't many green up ticks at least in Morgans. OBTW, I have sold nearly 1000 coins, all Silver Dollars, on Ebay and have a 100% feedback rating and have never had a coin returned. The ultra rare coins are doing OK, but the mid graded slabbed coins are in very very poor demand. I will never have another coin slabbed unless there is a cleaning issue.....I bought a raw 1921 Peace that looked MS63 easy....sent it off to NGC....got it back ungraded....cleaned. This dealer is the most popular coin dealer on Ebay. Sure, I got my money back and in this case, having it graded paid off. The hobby is getting unfun and this is the same reason I quit some 25 years ago.....thinking about ditching the hobby again. Too many cheaters, too much untrust, too much slabbing....I'm thinking of just buying mint coins from now on. Regards, Rick.

 

passed.

 

Collectors have givin too much power to the TPG's. This is why raw coins sell for much less in many cases.

[Brotherman]

The reality is that it takes a LONG time to learn how to do that!

 

Actually, it doesn't. I took an ANA coin grading seminar which helped me tremendously. There are also videos which accomplish the same thing, not to mention all of the books. Just take the time to do your homework.

 

This won't mean that you'll be a coin grading guru overnight but it will certainly give one the foundational skills to do so.

 

Once you obtain these skills then don't compromise on your purchases. I have before and I always regret it!

 

Ha-ha, I mean learning how to grade takes a long time for us knuckle-dragging

thickheaded types. Sure, it’s easy for Mensa members such as yourself.

I imagine your weekends go something like this:

Friday night go out and have a beer with the guys, jot down a working model

of cold fusion on a bar napkin.

Saturday morning teach yourself to speak Russian. Saturday afternoon finish

up that dissertation on the Dusky salamander. Saturday night have Chinese

for dinner and learn to speak Standard Mandarin while you finish designing

that Mars outside-affiliatelinksnotallowed for NASA.

Sunday morning learn to grade coins while brushing your teeth… etc.

 

I think the average guy can pick up the differences between AG, G, F, and

XF fairly quick. I think it gets more difficult with the VG, VF, AU, and MS coins.

It gets really hard when you are learning the subtle differences of specific

grades like the difference in a VF35 and an XF40 – not to mention an MS65

and an MS66 etc.

 

I keep telling myself it’s hard to learn this stuff – if it’s easy I’m in real

trouble!

 

Hays