Whizzed coins that get holdered

[Hoot]

I posted this thread in my AT coins that don't look AT thread, but I thought this message deserved a thread of its own. I'll also post a couple of pics here.

 

So, I was looking carefully at my large cents (which I often do, even though I have but a few) and I noticed that my 1839 petite head cent was changing color. (I wrote a thread about this coin in the Tangents One reason to hate slabs... a while back.) Color change under the conditions I keep my coins is always a good reason for me to look carefully at the piece. What I noticed was that a blueish cast was coming from around each of the devices and that the rich brown color was changing to a grayish tan. Gulp.

 

So, not being afraid of conservation, I dipped the coin in acetone to remove all oily surface "stuff" to get a better look at what was below. The colors better revealed themselves, and lo! and behold so did the expert whiz-job. Now, if you've ever been under the delusion that whizzing is so easy to spot that it could never get past the experts, you're wrong. This coin was purchased in an NGC holder early this year. Indeed, this was one of the best whiz-jobs I've ever laid eyes on, and it took some close inspection for the whizzing to reveal itself. What gave it away were three things: (1) The blue around the devices was a gun blueing (I'm guessing) which was used to cover up the contrast of devices with fields; (2) the edges of devices, particularly Liberty's lower neck, were sharp, as if corniced; (3) the coin lacked a full cartwheel luster, although clearly an AU coin.

 

Alas, I was not upset, rather I was somewhat delighted, at least fascinated. So, I removed all color from the coin in order to get the blueing off the surface, then looked carefully at the surfaces to detect the marks left behind from the whizzing. The marks were only barely detectable with a 10X loupe. This was a remarkable whiz-job, positively expertly executed. Indeed, this coin looked natural enough to get through NGC. This should surprise nobody.

 

Tkae a close look at the pictures provided in the link above. If you can detect all ofthe work done on that coin from those photos (which are pretty accurate to the condition of the coin at the time), then you're a better numismatist than I.

 

I fear posting photos of this coin as I put it through a process of restoration (although the whizzing can never be reversed), for fear of retribution, but what the hey . BTW, the whizzing may not be reversible, but the impairment can be removed by carrying the coin about as pocket change for a year or so. I won't be doing that with this coin - too valuable to me as is.

 

Hoot

 

To see the "before pics, go to the thread above. Here's the coin after the acetone bath:

 

[Hoot]

Here's the coin after the color removal and as it stands now. I will give it some time to begin toning on its own. BTW, the toning and blueing came off of the coin quite readily.

 

Hoot

 

[Oldtrader3]

Hoot, what was the coin's grade in the NGC slab? I wonder how they blued the coin?

 

The coin still does not look wizzed without magnification. I guess no matter how careful you are, there are Coin Doctor's out there that can fool anyone!

[WinstonWare]

Hoot, interesting thread. Thanks for sharing!

[Hoot]

The coin was holdered as an AU58BN. Mind you, I don't blame NGC or any other TPG in this way; this is just an illustration of how utterly we are challenged to get to know our coins. Had I not taken the advanced EAC course at ANA, I'd have never seen this.

 

I don't think that a person can detect the whizzing from the photos. Only some of the blueing shows, which is subtle in the photo, but was more evident in-hand. Again, I believe the blueing was done with a common agent, such as blueing for guns. It was applied and wiped softly from the central fields and high points of the devices. This gave the edges less evident definition.

 

Hoot

[truthteller]

Your coin may have been burnished. Or the coin may have been "processed" with Dellars Coin Darkener.

 

Many years ago, it was not uncommon for collectors to burnish their coins to "improve" the looks, especially with early date copper, resulting in a darker, glossy finish.

 

Fast forward, Dellers Coin Darkener has been on the market for years. A series of applications turn the copper dark, and leave an oily residue. Coins often get encapsulated, by all the TPGs, as your example shows.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[Hoot]

Truth - The coin was definitely not burnished, and definitely whizzed. Under a scope, the whizzing is quite evident, and all of the tell-tale signs are there. Burnishing imparts a totally different appearance, and I'm familiar with it.

 

As for the darkener - that was used over the top of the blueing. That gave the coin an initial chocolatey appearance. I have no objections to Deller's Darkener, since it only accelerates what is natural with copper. But it was clear from the acetone dip that the depth of the toning was quite shallow, which also comes with the Deller's Darkener territory. Given time, the depth increases and the coin will take on a thick "skin." The skin on this coin was not that thick, and I would therefore make the age of the surface out to be relatively recent, e.g., the past decade or so.

 

As mentioned, this piece was expertly done. That's why all of the signs that we are accustom to showing themselves evidently were rendered subtle.

 

Hoot

[Wihlborg]

Mark,

 

When looking at the coin under the scope were you able to see a build up of metal along the edges of the devices of the coin, and if so how much? I ask because you say it was such a good job and I wonder how it was done without leaving the telltale sign of metal build up in these areas of the coin.

 

John

[IGWT]

A most excellent post. Thanks for the lesson.

[Hoot]

Hi John - #2 in my list addresses your question...

 

What gave it away were three things: (1) The blue around the devices was a gun blueing (I'm guessing) which was used to cover up the contrast of devices with fields; (2) the edges of devices, particularly Liberty's lower neck, were sharp, as if corniced; (3) the coin lacked a full cartwheel luster, although clearly an AU coin.

 

"How much" is tougher to answer in the post, since I made no quantitative measurements. I hope that when we meet one day, I might be able to show you this coin.

 

Hoot

[EZ_E]

Thanks for the education, Mark. I just re-read the old thread. I was impressed the way Greg M. nailed the grade. He's a pretty sharp individual.

 

[TomB]

I am off to read your current post now, but I just finished reading the older, linked post and all I can think of is how prescient you were with the phrase

Gee whiz

that you used in your opening post to that thread.

[TomB]

I have to thank you for writing an absolutely fascinating thread, Mark, and for taking the time to include images, which enhances the writeup many fold. You have knowledge and courage, and I wish you great luck with the piece. Would you please keep us updated?

[EZ_E]

I am off to read your current post now, but I just finished reading the older, linked post and all I can think of is how prescient you were with the phrase

Gee whiz

that you used in your opening post to that thread.

 

I noticed that, too. Hey, Mark, any tips on the stock market??

[Hoot]

I am off to read your current post now, but I just finished reading the older, linked post and all I can think of is how prescient you were with the phrase

Gee whiz

that you used in your opening post to that thread.

 

I noticed that, too. Hey, Mark, any tips on the stock market??

 

Well, if screwing up in the first place can be prophetic, then I'll be a guru in no time flat. So as for the stock market, do everything I don't, and you'll do well.

 

Hoot

[Bruceswar]

I am off to read your current post now, but I just finished reading the older, linked post and all I can think of is how prescient you were with the phrase

Gee whiz

that you used in your opening post to that thread.

 

I noticed that, too. Hey, Mark, any tips on the stock market??

 

Wal Mart? OK thats not meant with too much seriousness, but sheesh how can you lose?

[macrocoin]

Very educational thread...thank you for posting.

When considering some of the skill exhibited by say a conservationist for NCS, it is easy to understand that there are doctors out there that can make a quite undetectable repair or alteration to a coin. If someone was invested enough, and deceiptful enough, I would put very little past the determined mind. Sad, but it does have a postive side...it encourages me to learn even more about what I collect. Becoming an expert is really the only way to have confidence in ones purchases. Many have said it before...knowing how to grade a coin by yourself eliminates all doubt. TPG's miss stuff sometimes. Goes to show that even with experience and education, top graders can be fooled.

 

Great thread

[James_OldeTowne]

Whizzed coins are usually not difficult to spot, BUT there are exceptions, as this outstanding example shows. Years ago, I found an 1815/2 Capped bust half in an NGC AU-50 holder that was whizzed, but someone had done a remarkable job of retoning it. I have also seen a whizzed small-sized bust quarter in a PCGS holder, though I don't recall the date off-hand. But I do think both services catch the vast majority of them,

 

James

[RWB]

"Thumbing" is also a popular way to improve the appearance of old copper.

[CarolinaCollector]

Thanks for the lesson, Hoot.

 

I haven't seen a whizzed cooper coin before now.

[HaydenTubbs]

 

 

 

 

Yuck!

 

How long do you think it will take to retone?

[Hoot]

How long do you think it will take to retone?

 

About two hours ... then a lifetime.

 

I rather like the naked lobster look.

 

Hoot

[IGWT]

Isn't the purpose of whizzing generally to create artificial luster; and, if so, what's the point of whizzing and then covering the surface with a dark tone?

[Wihlborg]

Isn't the purpose of whizzing generally to create artificial luster; and, if so, what's the point of whizzing and then covering the surface with a dark tone?

 

You are correct. Generally the purpose of whizzing is to create artificial luster, but in this case I would think it was to give the surfaces a cleaner, more pristine look.

 

John

[Hoot]

Isn't the purpose of whizzing generally to create artificial luster; and, if so, what's the point of whizzing and then covering the surface with a dark tone?

 

You are correct. Generally the purpose of whizzing is to create artificial luster, but in this case I would think it was to give the surfaces a cleaner, more pristine look.

 

John

 

That would be my guess. Who knows what the coin looked like before whizzing - perhaps it was colored oddly/badly and the "whizzer" just preferred that method to others for removing surface problems. The surfaces are very even now in terms of color, texture, "shine" (as opposed to luster), etc. Makes for an easy palette to work on.

 

Many of the whizzed copper coins we looked at in the EAC course were fairly high grade - AU and MS. Some were recolored and others were left red. Perhaps those that are recolored are the ones that turn out poorly as red coins(?).

 

Hoot

[Oldtrader3]

I have (over the years) had (2) wizzed coins that had been in ANACS holders. However, never any (that I am aware of) in NGC or PCGS holders. I have had (2) nicely toned, original looking (gold fields and carmine, blue peripheral toned) seated liberty coins though, that turned black in the PCGS/NGC holder within a year of purchase. They were an AU58 seated half and a nice looking PF62 seated dollar. Obviously, the "doctors" had played with these.