$5,500. paid for a 1940-S Walker NGC MS-64!

[Morgannut]

Michael has said to me many times, "Only buy no-brainer NT coins."

 

It's truly astonishing to me that so many completely irrational opinions are voiced on these boards. People who have never seen THIS 1940S coin--people with absolutely no experience with toned coins, people who are so Fuc$King cheap they won't buy the $30 Bob Campbell (ex:ANA president) video on telling AT (strait from the doctor's mouths) so they'll have a CLUE what to look for. If you don't know, buy white coins--if YOU'VE seen it and actually know coins------THEN it's information. Otherwise you have no clue.

 

All you dealers are really doing is pawning off your dipped out white crud to new collectors who you claim to help. ----BTW, I thought the coin was very poorly struck (even as an S) and NOT WORTH HALF what at least 5 serious experienced collectors bid and thought--BUT THEN, I SAW IT__SO I GET AN OPINION. Ya can't tell a thing from pictures guys--sorry.

[IGWT]

BUT THEN, I SAW IT__SO I GET AN OPINION. Ya can't tell a thing from pictures guys--sorry.

 

Have you never provided an opinion based only on a picture posted on the boards? Careful . . . search engines are pretty powerful. We formulate opinions based on the best information we have at hand. I guarantee, for example, that quite a few people have come up with a strong opinion based on the tone and content of your post.

[chinook]

Morgannut,

 

I think you are calling me irrational? Dude, you need some help.

 

I guess I have to clarify for the reading impaired. Bottom line...if you are not 100% sure then pass. In the long run you will have a great collection and will be able to sleep at night.

[Morgannut]

Absolutely I've speculated an opinion---- generally I try to promote more knowledge through seeing the ANA video where 95% of the comments and folklore here are dispelled - and REAL AT/NT issues are shown in color close-up. Or....

 

Sometimes I'll say you need to see a coin to say AT/NT --other times I try to point out a few key things that are tip-offs to make an informed decision at a show.

Often I just get tired and don't post anything-- as recently

 

*******Chinook----I agree 100% with your idea that if not 100% sure--or you have a bad feeling on the coin-- PASS on it! Very good advise!***************

 

I just went through about 1000 auction lots at ANR where there were some terrific coins. Let me try again--there were many more problem coins that were untoned than toned coins in ANACS, NGC or PCGS holders. One Morgan in a PCGS MS64 holder actually had what looked like grease--in just my dumb opinion---- pealing from the cheek where it had hidden roller marks. It went to the internet for over $1000.

[CTcollector]

I saw the 40-S in person. Bob has already led in that I am of the opinion the coin is AT. Several other dealers and numismatists who I discussed the coin with or overheard discussing the coin were of the opinion it was AT also. The reason it was such a buzz in the lot viewing area is that the opening bid sheet had the coin opening up at around $2,500 or so and no one could believe that price considering the coin. Could of never imagined it sold for what it did when it hit the floor. Could we all be wrong and Laura correct ? Maybe - she certainly is one sharp numismatist. Do I want to debate her or others on the coin - No, its not constructive. But here are my thoughts that I want to share. I believe there is a program out there right now that is ATing walkers in this manner. This is the 3RD common date walker with very similar toning to the 40-S that has popped up in the last few months. I debated the previous coins across the street. When the first one popped up - it was said to have very rare toning never seen before and chances are never to be seen again, etc,,,, The coin went for moon money and now we are seeing more and more come out of the woodwork. Maybe the hot color market is bringing out legitimate coins and then again maybe not. The second thing I noticed sitting through the ANR auction was bidders "running up" other bidders. Can I prove this? No - just a gut feeling. The auction room was small enough to get a feel for it. Why do I bring this up - I am not sure how much these crazy prices are legitimate versus other people monkeying around. So, something you should be cognizant of. I don't think this is the case in most instances, but certainly in some.

 

TDN - Maybe you can encourage Laura to come and post and educate us on what makes her so confident from a technical toning perspective the 40-S is NT. Honestly, I don't think my personal opinion would change on the coin, but I would keep an open mind in the spirit of educating others.

[Connecticoin]

One Morgan in a PCGS MS64 holder actually had what looked like grease--in just my dumb opinion---- pealing from the cheek where it had hidden roller marks. It went to the internet for over $1000.

 

Which one?

[Tradedollarnut]

TDN - Maybe you can encourage Laura to come and post and educate us on what makes her so confident from a technical toning perspective the 40-S is NT. Honestly, I don't think my personal opinion would change on the coin, but I would keep an open mind in the spirit of educating others.

 

She stated in her post across the street that she knows of no doctor who can do the reds as are on this particular coin.

[TomB]

Okay, I've now seen this coin in-hand at the Baltimore show and will give my opinion on it.

 

In all honesty, I don't like it. The coin in-hand looks much more natural than the ANR image, as far as I am concerned, and the greens on the coin look like they are real and are much deeper on the coin than the image. However, I didn't like the underlying color of the coin and the overall color blend looked funky to me. This isn't to say that I am screaming AT, this is to say that while the color was unusual, and the distribution or depth of toning atypical, I found the overall eye appeal to be negative. Also, and what I do not see on the image but I swear I saw in-hand, there is a fine, uninterrupted scratch in a mild arc going from the base of the eagle's neck feathers to the reverse rim behind the wings.

 

My opinion of the coin in-hand is that it is overgraded and slightly unattractive with unusual and not completely compelling toning that does not fill me with confidence as to its veracity.

[MikeInFL]

Laura bought it and says it's no brainer NT. Next?

 

With all due respect, just because Laura bought it doesn't mean it isn't AT.

 

IIRC, Laura didn't buy it for herself, but rather to sell.

 

So all you've really shown is that Laura thought it was sellable.

 

Next?

[Tradedollarnut]

So all you've really shown is that Laura thought it was sellable.

 

No - she said it was no brainer NT. I trust her judgement a lot more than I trust anybody on any chatroom.

 

Next.

[truthteller]

Here's my opinion. It really doesn't matter if the coin is AT or NT, it's not my coin. I like the reverse colors and the distribution of colors in the upper right half of the coin. However, the obverse has problems. There is too much splotchiness within the colors of the lower portion of Miss Liberty. AT processes tend to intermix spots with color, leaving mini targets over affected areas. This effect is the problem with accelerated toning and too much humidity. Usually, the splotchiness tends to appear after time, sometimes after a coin is holdered. In general, an NT coin could also have spots, but it would not interfere with the underlying color flow. Dark spots concern me, white spots tend to give veracity to NT. The coin looks very appealing, but price is a major factor.

 

TRUTH

[MikeInFL]

No - she said it was no brainer NT. I trust her judgement a lot more than I trust anybody on any chatroom.

 

Considering your financial relationship with Legend Numismatics, I would be surprised to hear you say anything else. The fact remains that this coin is questionable in the eyes of many who've seen it. Laura's opinion, no matter how widely respected, is still her opinion. To dismiss dissenting viewpoints with "Laura said it's NT so therefore it must be NT" is weak at best...Mike

[Tradedollarnut]

Considering your financial relationship with Legend Numismatics, I would be surprised to hear you say anything else.

 

Actually, if she or I thought it was AT, I'd say so. Personally, I don't like the coin for the price and wouldn't buy it, but I think it's probably NT.

 

The fact remains that this coin is questionable in the eyes of many who've seen it. Laura's opinion, no matter how widely respected, is still her opinion. To dismiss dissenting viewpoints with "Laura said it's NT so therefore it must be NT" is weak at best...Mike

 

Some opinions carry more weight than others due to experience. And you will note that I never said it must be NT. I said I value her opinion over anyone on a chatroom and that's true. Many of the dissenting viewpoints you reference are from people who simply don't have the real life experience to know good AT if it jumped up and bit them in the face. Others, like TomB, have a good working knowledge but they are more careful to couch their opinions in terms that are along the line of 'I can't really tell, but I wouldn't buy it'. I agree with that approach.

 

Laura is in a position to know what can and can't be done to coins. I believe her when she states that the doctors can't do red like this. There are so few red coins around that I'm inclined to think it's the truth.

[Morgannut]

I highly respect Tob B's opinion. And agree with the folowing:

 

1) "The coin in hand looks MUCH mor natural than the ANR images"

2) "In all honesty I don't like it"-- (AS I said, in my opinion it was way overpriced)--

3) "In my opinion the coin in hand is overgraded and slightly unattractive"--

 

To actually try to add something contructive-- I encountered a canvas bag of Franklin and Walker Halves (hoarded with dimes/quarters in other bags) sold 2 years ago at Weschlers Estate Auctions in Washington, D.C. A small number of the Walkers displayed a similar but less vibrant rainbow banded tone and had a sort of foggy haze over them. As you might guess, the uncirculated coins were of low grade because I presume they had banged around in the bag. So I've seen NT Walkers that are similar--just not as fully toned or vibrant (Interesting the ones in the bag had the same color value red's found on bag-toned Morgans similarly stored. And were MS62-3.

 

But--I'd advise anyone not 100% sure, to never buy a toned coin.

[MikeInFL]

TDN,

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I guess your original dismissive response just rubbed me the wrong way.

 

Coins such as this should be used as a discussion point to educate, and we should do what we can to foster these discourses....Mike

[Tradedollarnut]

I guess your original dismissive response just rubbed me the wrong way.

 

I was in a bad mood due to smoeone calling a different beautiful coin a circ. Sorry!

[truthteller]

Time for a friendly group hug.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[MikeInFL]

TDN, No biggie. If it makes you feel any better, I spoke with George today, who was very courteous and helpful. As a result, a certain toned proof barber dime is on its way to my house. Take care...Mike

[EZ_E]

I guess your original dismissive response just rubbed me the wrong way.

 

I was in a bad mood due to someone calling a different beautiful coin a circ. Sorry!

 

Gee, that man takes his coins seriously. But is there any other way?!

[CTcollector]

Many of the dissenting viewpoints you reference are from people who simply don't have the real life experience to know good AT if it jumped up and bit them in the face.

 

Before we begin knocking and demeaning collectors - a reminder regarding PEACEGATE that it was the sell side; dealers, their associates, and X-TPG graders that were touting that coin and giving it a pass. It was the collector base who called that coin out for what it was.... My point being is lets not be so quick to underestimate collector skill sets and their ability to articulate an opinion. Dissenting viewpoints on the toning of the 40-S as well as the price paid are topics for healthy discourse. If presented in a thought out and diplomatic manner, they really don't deserve to be dismissed in this manner.

[Tradedollarnut]

Many of the dissenting viewpoints you reference are from people who simply don't have the real life experience to know good AT if it jumped up and bit them in the face.

 

Before we begin knocking and demeaning collectors - a reminder regarding PEACEGATE that it was the sell side; dealers, their associates, and X-TPG graders that were touting that coin and giving it a pass. It was the collector base who called that coin out for what it was.... My point being is lets not be so quick to underestimate collector skill sets and their ability to articulate an opinion. Dissenting viewpoints on the toning of the 40-S as well as the price paid are topics for healthy discourse. If presented in a thought out and diplomatic manner, they really don't deserve to be dismissed in this manner.

 

The coin in question in 'Peacegate' wasn't 'good AT' by any stretch of the imagination. And the majority of collectors posted 'nice coin' before it was revealed who 'did' it. And the dealer in question is an attorney by trade and dabbles in coins as a sideline. Now there's some long term expertise ... uh, huh.

 

Most collectors really have no clue as to what constitutes AT and what doesn't - unless it's horribly blatant. I've been collecting coins for nearly 40 years and still don't have the expertise in that area that practically any of the full time dealers have.

 

I feel it's better the collectors be told the way it truly is than to fluff their abilities [or lack thereof] up and make them feel better ... if you disagree, then so be it.

 

As far as the price paid goes, I think you'll find me in full agreement.

[stman]

The coin in question in 'Peacegate' wasn't 'good AT' by any stretch of the imagination. And the majority of collectors posted 'nice coin' before it was revealed who 'did' it.

 

I never have be in the "Majority" group. (yes in a nice way I called it bad from the get go.) And I will agree with CT Collector that it seemed to be dealers and other folks that are invested in the color market that called the Peace$ real. Actually, my opinion is many in this arena want to call all of the questionable coins real that are slabbed. Why? My opinion is it's in their best interest.

 

Just an opinion from a collector on a chat board though!!

[Tradedollarnut]

The coin in question in 'Peacegate' wasn't 'good AT' by any stretch of the imagination. And the majority of collectors posted 'nice coin' before it was revealed who 'did' it.

 

I never have be in the "Majority" group. (yes in a nice way I called it bad from the get go.) And I will agree with CT Collector that it seemed to be dealers and other folks that are invested in the color market that called the Peace$ real. Actually, my opinion is many in this arena want to call all of the questionable coins real that are slabbed. Why? My opinion is it's in their best interest.

 

Just an opinion from a collector on a chat board though!!

 

Yup - you definitely called a spade a spade!

[Morgannut]

Many of the dissenting viewpoints you reference are from people who simply don't have the real life experience to know good AT if it jumped up and bit them in the face.

 

Before we begin knocking and demeaning collectors - a reminder regarding PEACEGATE that it was the sell side; dealers, their associates, and X-TPG graders that were touting that coin and giving it a pass. It was the collector base who called that coin out for what it was.... My point being is lets not be so quick to underestimate collector skill sets and their ability to articulate an opinion. Dissenting viewpoints on the toning of the 40-S as well as the price paid are topics for healthy discourse. If presented in a thought out and diplomatic manner, they really don't deserve to be dismissed in this manner.

 

Tradedollarnut answered this post very well on "collectors"---I finally RANTED against these posters after 3 pages of uninformed negative comments such as "that coin screams AT" and the like. NO ONE HAD SEEN IT --AND IT DIDN"T LOOK LIKE THE ANR IMAGES!!

How can the discourse be healthy or informed if collectors haven't examined the coin?? Up to that point, the thread was an exercise in bashing toned coins--

[CTcollector]

Many of the dissenting viewpoints you reference are from people who simply don't have the real life experience to know good AT if it jumped up and bit them in the face.

 

Before we begin knocking and demeaning collectors - a reminder regarding PEACEGATE that it was the sell side; dealers, their associates, and X-TPG graders that were touting that coin and giving it a pass. It was the collector base who called that coin out for what it was.... My point being is lets not be so quick to underestimate collector skill sets and their ability to articulate an opinion. Dissenting viewpoints on the toning of the 40-S as well as the price paid are topics for healthy discourse. If presented in a thought out and diplomatic manner, they really don't deserve to be dismissed in this manner.

 

Tradedollarnut answered this post very well on "collectors"---I finally RANTED against these posters after 3 pages of uninformed negative comments such as "that coin screams AT" and the like. NO ONE HAD SEEN IT --AND IT DIDN"T LOOK LIKE THE ANR IMAGES!!

How can the discourse be healthy or informed if collectors haven't examined the coin?? Up to that point, the thread was an exercise in bashing toned coins--

 

Another generalization I am not in agreement with. I don't think the thread was an exercise in bashing toned coins. I, like many others who contributed to this thread, love originally toned coins. In fact that is all I have in my collection. The difference is I like my toned coins the way mother nature made them - I don't particularly care for a coin when the color is manufactured or if the coin has been processed or otherwise enhanced. Additionally, I don't mind speaking up against the commercial aspect of the hobby or helping to educate others in identifying the difference. I'm just not someone who is going to conveniently surrender the hobby to the ever widening net of "market acceptability". Apologies in advance if this bothers you or others.

[Tradedollarnut]

I'm just not someone who is going to conveniently surrender the hobby to the ever widening net of "market acceptability".

 

I agree with this. There are plenty of AT coins in top TPG holders. I saw a $200k coin in a PCGS holder at LB that I thought was flaming AT. And I saw the infamous Peace dollar that I knew was AT as well.

 

Even if a coin is in a PCGS or NGC holder, it's still gotta pass my personal 'I like it' test.