Grading, Cleaned, Original, A bit of it all....

[Bruceswar]

A forum member had posted a thread about grading the other day and cleaned coins. He then ask for me if I could show a few examples from ebay for him. I had private messaged him the following, but I felt it was a good lesson for alot of other folks and it needed to be posted as well. I will state this is not meant to slam any coins in the auctions or the people auctioning them. This is merely for learning purposes. Feeel free to comment as you see fit.

 

Hello,

As mentioned I am going to show you a few examples of what to look for when it comes to cleaned coins vs original coins and also overdipped coins. I choose to use the Washington Quarter Series as a good reference, since these are widely collected, and since I know a bit about them. I am working on a nice UNC set of Washingtons from 1932 to 1964. Its been great fun to work on and it gives me something to truly work for. Anyhow back to your question. Auction 1 That is an original coin with a nice thick skin on the coin. You will notice it is not super blast white, which means it has not been dipped recently. Not all dipping is bad. Some coins eye appeal can great be increased with a quick dip and rinse. I would not dip any coins till you fully know what you are doing. So for now LEAVE THIS ALONE, dipping that is. Auction 2 This coin is overgraded, Just look at the hair and see the flatness. Notice also the Flatness in the perch the bird is on. Fields looks Pretty clean but a few marks in some of the focal areas. Also from the images I see no great luster. Now the images may be bad, but I can be sure the coin will not look like this. It took me some time to search out this piece. This one does not come up that often and even less raw. 1943 is a bit more common, but nice pieces are getting harder to come by since people overgrade the junk and hope people buy it raw. They want to keep the good pieces. When you find a nice coin, you don't want to sell it right away, you want to hold on to it, and so do most people. I am not saying nice coins don't come up, but they are far less than people think. People sometimes get used to what they see on ebay or elsewhere on a series and forget what nice coins look like. The average coins to them become nice and you get a ripple effect. Here is a piece I own which I and many others think is a nice PQ True MS 64 piece...

Which coin would you buy? Grated the 1942 S is a better date than the 1943, but putting that aside, you can see what coin is better. Auction 3 These quarters are what I was talking about being heavily circulated and way to shiny. These were at one time shined up. Even with the image you can see what looks to be hairlines on some of the coins in the bottom row. Also the way washingtons are, the go flat pretty fast, so some pieces may seem overgraded, but in fact will not be. Original looking circulated pieces may be flat but they will not shine as much, and there will always be darker spots on the lower parts of the coin. Less hands touched those parts of the coins. Auction 4 This is a classic ebay coin. "THIS IS 1932 S WASHINGTON QUARTER IN EXTRA FINE CONDITION, PLEASE BEFORE BIDDING TAKE A LOOK AT THE PICTURES AND GRADED YOUR SELF." By classic I mean that is a way for a knowing person to get an unknowing person and do it leagally. The coin has been cleaned. Just look at the lines on the coin fields and devices. Now this seller may not know the coin is cleaned, but I would bet he has tried to move this before and has been told it was so, off to ebay it went waiting for someone to buy the coin thinking it is original. The close up picture of the date you can really see the lines on this coin. This coin has been cleaned, not as bad as some, but it would get BB'ed(Body Bagged) by one of the grading services. Auction 5 This is a coin that is original. The seller does not describe the coin other than the date and mint mark, but this is still a problem coin. There is a rather large scratch on the eagles right wing. That would cause it to get BB'ed by any "respectable" Grading Service. The ones I consider Respectable as far as grades go, NGC, ANACS, PCGS. ICG and PCI are not bad, but please know what you are getting into when buying coins in there slabs. ICG tends to be a bit more leanent on some of there grading, but they are the better of the 2. PCI, the newer Slabs are not respectable as far as grading goes, AT vs NT, and other things. The old "Green label or Red Label(Damaged Coins)" are respectable. But keep in mind grading is all subjective and even NGC and PCGS can be off a point or 2. Here is a AT PCI 1965 Kennedy I bought. I knew the coin did not grade MS 67 like the slab, but I did like the toning, which at first I was on the fence on, now I know its AT, but pretty none the less.

I would regard all other slabs as raw coins and should be judged from the images or best in hand. NTC and SEGS overgrade. Only good for fake coins, but be carefull on key dates. Auction 6 This coin is as described. Even with a blurry picture of the reverse you can see the nice luster on the coin. Also looks to be clean(Hit wise) from the images. Auction 7 This is an original piece with no problems at all. Its been well circulated, but a nice piece givin its grade Good 4 at best. And for one last coin.. Auction 8 This coin has been dipped and looks to have lost some of the luster, maybe even being very lightly wiped. Hard to tell from the pictures. This coin is not close to BU(Brillant Uncirculated) XF to AU for me. Max AU 55. I hope this helps and you can learn something from this. This is one series, but many things mentioned here can carry over to any series. Only the grading will be different.

Thanks,

Bruce Lee

[Stanley]

Good post Mark

 

 

“This is a classic ebay coin. "THIS IS 1932 S WASHINGTON QUARTER”

 

 

I emailed the seller and asked “Has this coin been cleaned?”

 

 

His reply : no that i know at list no by me

 

thank you for ask

[Bruceswar]

I am not Mark I am Bruce, but thanks for the nice comments. Seems like the guy you emailed does not speak English well or was just in a haste to reply to you. He may truly not know, but I would put money on that he knows whats going on. This is not a slam on him personally, but more his business practices if he does know. If not buyer beware anyhow.

[Stanley]

Sorry about that Buce

[EZ_E]

Mark, Bruce, Michael...it's the same ole chit, man. You all know your ju-ju!

 

Bruce, that was tremendously cool of you to search and write this bit on an inquiry. Good eye, btw, on the '32 Washington. The photo had poor lighting which made it kind of difficult for me to evaluate properly.

 

40 years of life has made me kind of cynical to most people outside of work. However, I can drop that cynicism at the door when I visit the NGC forum. And that, gentlemen, is a no B.S.'er!! Some of the most generous and warm-hearted people in this world are found on these boards.

 

My sincerest respect and admiration out to each and everyone of ya!

[Bruceswar]

I assume by "32 Washington" You mean the 1932 S That I posted as cleaned. This for me was a pretty easy one to spot, but I have grown a pretty good coin eye. The lighting was a problem as you mentioned, but on ebay you take what you can get when it comes to images. The 1932 D I posted, is a nice coin and a key date at that. Thanks for the nice comments. The more knowledge that is spread the better.

[Bruceswar]

 

Bruce, that was tremendously cool of you to search and write this bit on an inquiry. Good eye, btw, on the '32 Washington. The photo had poor lighting which made it kind of difficult for me to evaluate properly.

 

 

And to think I only had to look at about 2 pages of ebay coins to find all the examples I needed. Just goes to show what a minefield Ebay is or has become. Buyer Beware!

[CoinCurious]

Thanks Bruce. I actually think im learning. Woohoo.

[TomB]

Nice post and nice research. It was quite thoughtful of you to share your experience with someone through a PM that was so carefully laid out.

[crazyboutcoins-migration]

Thanks for the great post Bruce. Very nice of you to put forth the effort to teach us newbies (and most likely a lot of the old timers)! I learn everytime I read these boards. I couldn't have said it any better than Victor.

[Bruceswar]

Thanks for the praise.... but I am just trying to help a fellow collector who ask. In the end it will help out the hobby as a whole... That 1932 S Quarter went for HUGE money in the state that its in... SOMEONE got hosed... but at least I know it was not a board member

[TJ'S Coins]

Very helpful information, great post and excellent insight into looking at coins from their pictures. I'm learning a lot on this forum!

[Bruceswar]

to the top for a good thread

[WinstonWare]

Great post. Thanks!

[Brucec-migration]

Well fro one Bruce to another I think you very much for that lesson I am sure it took some time. It was a very valuable lesson for us new collectors and you can't get any newer than me.

 

Thanks again.

[Stanley]

Bruce,

Are you resurrecting this thread? If so, which category should this Washington Quarter fall under?

 

Do we Bag it or Slab it?

 

 

[Bruceswar]

I have a feeling this coin would bag in today's grading. It could very well slab, but I don't see it.